IRC Log for 0.10.0 Developer Meeting

   1 13:00 <@boyd> couple more minutes and we'll be underway with the mtg.
   2 13:00 -!- segphault [~segphault@adsl-67-123-205-241.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net] has joined #tomboy
   3 13:01 -!- You're now known as sandy
   4 13:01 <@boyd> welcome to the meeting everyone!  :)
   5 13:02 <@boyd> hopefully orph joins us shortly
   6 13:04 <@boyd> well, first off, congratulations everyone for helping make tomboy 0.8 a success!
   7 13:04 <@boyd> we gained an awesome new maintainer (sandy) !!!
   8 13:04 <@sandy> lots of new contributors, too
   9 13:04 <@sandy> mw, Jc2k, etc
  10 13:04 <@boyd> learned that we shouldn't start a huge feature too late in the cycle
  11 13:05 <@sandy> :-/
  12 13:05 <@boyd> but sandy still pulled it off!!
  13 13:05 -!- seiflotfy [~seif@P5118.pallas.wh.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #tomboy
  14 13:05 <@boyd> any other "success stories" anyone wants to share?
  15 13:05 < seiflotfy> well gimmie is about to be able to support facebook
  16 13:05 < seiflotfy> stil lworkign on it
  17 13:05 < seiflotfy> i get the list of contacts 
  18 13:05 <@sandy> for Tomboy... ;-)
  19 13:05 < seiflotfy> however i have to login on gimmie start
  20 13:05 -!- CIA-1 [~CIA@208.69.182.149] has joined #tomboy
  21 13:06 < seiflotfy> nope
  22 13:06 < seiflotfy> hehehehe
  23 13:06 <@boyd> heh
  24 13:06 <@sandy> congratulations, though
  25 13:06 < seiflotfy> thx
  26 13:06 <@boyd> okay ... well, any other things we could improve on ... for the development process this time vs. 0.8?
  27 13:06 <@boyd> ...besides make sure to start a big feature early
  28 13:07 <@sandy> I think looking at the GNOME schedule like we're doing
  29 13:07 <@sandy> helps us thiknk about "do we really have time to finish this feature"
  30 13:07 <@sandy> or at least, by when should we have this feature "good enough" that it's just in bug fix mode
  31 13:07 <@boyd> yeah, let's not start something at the beginning of december ...
  32 13:07 <@boyd> or even during thanksgiving
  33 13:08 <@boyd> at least not something as big as sync
  34 13:08 <@sandy> right
  35 13:08 <@boyd> I know that I didn't have/make as much time for bugfixing as I should have this time around
  36 13:08  * boyd wonders what our current bug count is at right now
  37 13:08 <@sandy> yeah, and it's hard to focus on bugfixing when you're still cleaning up a major feature
  38 13:08 <@boyd> 184 open tomboy bugs right now
  39 13:09 <@boyd> I think when we released 0.6, we were around 100
  40 13:09 <@sandy> I think it's likely that we'll have a few 0.8.x releases
  41 13:09 <@boyd> we ought to build a list of the ones we ought to try to fix for 0.8.x
  42 13:09 <@boyd> and get them knocked out quickly if we can
  43 13:09 <@boyd> so we can move on
  44 13:09 <@sandy> good idea
  45 13:10 <@boyd> ...not necessarily right now, but as a task leading out of this mtg., we ought to build the list
  46 13:10 <@sandy> and we should do the same thing at the end of the cycle, maybe
  47 13:10 -!- seiflotfy [~seif@P5118.pallas.wh.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
  48 13:10 <@sandy> to help us focus on bugfixing
  49 13:11 <@boyd> yeah, perhaps just have a quick bug pow-wow near the end of dec (before feature freeze)
  50 13:11 <@boyd> ...or would we want to hold it after feature freeze?
  51 13:11 <@sandy> either way
  52 13:11  * sandy takes note of action items
  53 13:11 <@boyd> :)
  54 13:12 <@boyd> so any other "process" improvements?
  55 13:12 < Jc2k> you should have a reward for contributors to your dbus code.
  56 13:12 <@boyd> heh
  57 13:12  * sandy gives Jc2k a cookie
  58 13:12 <@sandy> branching for tomboy sync was a bad idea
  59 13:12 < Jc2k> :D
  60 13:13 <@boyd> sandy: yeah, that kind of just muddied the water
  61 13:13 <@sandy> we should jsut work on trunk, and not be afraid to remove stuff later if it doesn't work out
  62 13:13 <@boyd> that works for me as long as we leave time to make sure our removal doesn't bust things
  63 13:13 <@sandy> agreed
  64 13:14 <@boyd> and somehow someone should invent more time in the day so I can hack more on tomboy
  65 13:14 <@boyd> ...it doesn't help to have work assignments change all the time :-\
  66 13:14 < Jc2k> polyphasic sleep?
  67 13:14 <@boyd> I didn't have as much time for 0.8 vs. 0.6
  68 13:14 <@boyd> but that comes and goes
  69 13:15 <@sandy> right
  70 13:15 <@sandy> so since we're doing features earlier, that shouldn't be too big a deal
  71 13:15 <@boyd> so anyone want to push for a specific bug to be fixed right away?
  72 13:15 <@sandy> well, I don't have the number off hand, but there's a bug dealing with title restrictions
  73 13:15 < Jc2k> the remainding issues in note formatting when using SetContentXml
  74 13:16 <@boyd> I can see what's on Jc2k's mind :)
  75 13:16 < Jc2k> :D
  76 13:16 <@sandy> Jc2k: were there any visible issues left?
  77 13:16 < Jc2k> i cant remember the details, but you left the bug open
  78 13:16 < Jc2k> IIRC, it didnt create links properly?
  79 13:16 <@sandy> no, the bug left is very minor
  80 13:17 < Jc2k> oh
  81 13:17 < Jc2k> :)
  82 13:17 <@sandy> an extraneous tag
  83 13:17 < Jc2k> apologies, i must have misread
  84 13:17 <@boyd> note titles do need to be fixed up
  85 13:17 <@sandy> for 0.10.0
  86 13:17 <@boyd> I never hit the problem myself, but when trying the scenario, it's pretty bad
  87 13:18 <@sandy> I think auto-updating of links is a bad behavior, personally
  88 13:18 <@sandy> but we can discuss it in the bug, I guess?
  89 13:18 <@boyd> yeah
  90 13:18 <@sandy> either way, the current situation keeps hurting our users
  91 13:18 <@boyd> agreed
  92 13:18 <@boyd> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=350990
  93 13:18 <@boyd> that's the bug
  94 13:18 <@boyd> I agree, it ought to be fixed asap!
  95 13:19 <@sandy> probably can't do that for 0.8.x, though
  96 13:19 <@boyd> yeah, it's gonna be a behavior/feature change
  97 13:19 <@boyd> I'm guessing
  98 13:19 <@boyd> why is this one marked as a blocker?  https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=415606  (too much distance between lines in bulleted list)
  99 13:19 <@sandy> hmm
 100 13:20 <@sandy> maybe the reporter did that?
 101 13:20 -!- everaldo [~everaldo@189-29-208-8-nd.cpe.vivax.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
 102 13:20 -!- orph [~agraveley@little-black-box.vmware.com] has joined #tomboy
 103 13:20 <@boyd> not even critical imo, but we can fix that easily enough
 104 13:20 <@sandy> yup
 105 13:20 <@boyd> hey orph!  we're just talking abt. what our most annoying bugs are ... that we should fix soon before diving into new features
 106 13:21 -!- mchasal [~mchasal@bi-02pt1.bluebird.ibm.com] has quit [Read error: 78 (Connection timed out)]
 107 13:21 <@boyd> so basically the ones related to changing the title let's get them fixed: #250990 & #444685
 108 13:21 <@sandy> there is a sync bug I should get for 0.8.x...doesn't need to be discussed
 109 13:22 <@boyd> k
 110 13:22 <@boyd> mark that one down
 111 13:22 <@sandy> yeah
 112 13:22 <@boyd> what abt. the "help kill libegg" one?
 113 13:22 <@sandy> well, that will take some work
 114 13:22 <@boyd> not really a big bug I guess
 115 13:22 <@sandy> we would have to switch to using gtkstatusicon
 116 13:22 <@sandy> which has less features than libegg
 117 13:22 <@sandy> because it's not a widget
 118 13:22 <@boyd> ah
 119 13:22 <@sandy> no middle-click, for example
 120 13:23 <@sandy> I'd be interested in working on that if I have time
 121 13:23 <@boyd> well, a more important annoyance is the Mono.Addins not always loading at startup
 122 13:23 <@boyd> let's put the libegg thing down but prob. just something to look at if we get to it
 123 13:23 <@sandy> is there a bug for that?
 124 13:24 <@boyd> I don't think there's a mono.addins bug reported
 125 13:24 <@boyd> I'm just concerned there will be
 126 13:24 <@sandy> I'm not familiar with that problem
 127 13:24 <@boyd> I haven't really tested all the upgrading problems
 128 13:24 <@boyd> s/problems/scenarios
 129 13:24 <@boyd> I know that when I'm building different version of tomboy and running them, occasionally, the addins don't load
 130 13:24 < orph> oh crap.  i misread the time of the meeting as 2pm.  sorry dudes.  good thing i showed up "early" :)
 131 13:25 <@boyd> and I have to restart tomboy a couple times before addins start working
 132 13:25 <@sandy> oh, that's true
 133 13:25 <@boyd> orph: no worries, glad you're here!
 134 13:25 <@boyd> sandy: I just wonder if anyone who upgrades from 0.6.x -> 0.8 will hit that issue
 135 13:25 <@boyd> I can ask our QA guy to test that one out (write that down as an action item for me) :)
 136 13:25 <@sandy> okay, so that needs to be tested
 137 13:26 <@boyd> if it's a problem, it ought to be added to the things to take care of right awy
 138 13:26 <@sandy> agreed
 139 13:26 <@sandy> any other bugs to discuss?
 140 13:26 <@boyd> prob. not anything needed immediately
 141 13:26 <@sandy> alright, features!
 142 13:27  * Jc2k hands out propaganda
 143 13:27 <@boyd> open the flood-gates
 144 13:27 <@sandy> boyd: what are you think about Tasks?
 145 13:27 <@sandy> we've been getting some nice bug reports
 146 13:27 <@boyd> yeah, it's been good feedback
 147 13:27 <@sandy> and the recent notes menu integration is really cool
 148 13:27 <@sandy> I think Tasks has legs, and makes sense in Tomboy
 149 13:28 <@sandy> but I haven't used it much
 150 13:28 <@boyd> one thing I noticed watching someone the other day ...
 151 13:28 <@boyd> it would be really good to add something to the menu so that ...
 152 13:28 <@boyd> a user could just add a simple task right then and there in the menu
 153 13:28 <@boyd> instead of having to pop open a window/etc. to doit
 154 13:28 <@boyd> you know, when you just want to grab a piece of paper and jot it down? ... as a task?
 155 13:29 <@sandy> interesting
 156 13:29 <@boyd> you don't want to have to click all over the place
 157 13:29 < orph> ya
 158 13:29 <@boyd> same thing might be true for a note actually
 159 13:29 <@sandy> so we kind of have two apps in one
 160 13:29 <@sandy> with good integration between them
 161 13:29 <@boyd> kinda
 162 13:29 < orph> what about creating a new note and prefixing the name with TODO:
 163 13:29 < orph> (btw, i think that's how all TODOs should work)
 164 13:29 <@boyd> orph: possibly
 165 13:30 <@sandy> I think the issue is people like to make todo lists in their notes, right?
 166 13:30 <@sandy> that's reallyt he problem we're trying to solve?
 167 13:30 <@boyd> I know that a lot of people have said that they want a way to be taking meeting notes and then just create todo items directly inline with their meeting notes
 168 13:30 < Jc2k> there was a site that used a note to generate several tasks... i linked sandy and boyd
 169 13:30 -!- mchasal [~mchasal@bi-02pt1.bluebird.ibm.com] has joined #tomboy
 170 13:30 < orph> you could even have a New TODO Note in the menu, which would make it even easier, and would just create a new note named "TODO: Timestamp"
 171 13:30 <@boyd> the whole tasks/todo idea definitely needs to be explored more
 172 13:31 <@boyd> orph: have you been able to try out the tasks addin that's currently in svn trunk?
 173 13:31 < orph> creating todo lists in notes can be handled by making todo items into notes, and using not linking to list them out in other notes.
 174 13:31 < orph> the same way the rest of tomboy works
 175 13:32 <@boyd> orph: ah!  I like that idea!
 176 13:32 <@sandy> yeah, but then it's hard to find your todos
 177 13:32 <@boyd> a todo is essentially a special kind of note
 178 13:32 < orph> maybe you even show a lil checkbox next to the link
 179 13:32 <@sandy> and whether or not  they're completed
 180 13:32 < orph> and cross out the link text when the todo is completed
 181 13:32 <@boyd> hehe, showing checkboxes next to the link!  I'll give someone a sweet prize if they can get that working well!
 182 13:32 <@sandy> you tried that already, right?
 183 13:33 <@boyd> yeah, but I'm no gtk expert either
 184 13:33 < orph> no one is ;)
 185 13:33 <@boyd> kudos to anyone who braves the TextIter & TextBuffer!
 186 13:33 <@boyd> what do you guys think about storing tasks in EDS?
 187 13:33 < orph> i think it's a waste of time.
 188 13:33 <@boyd> good?  bad?  use it optionally?  ?
 189 13:34 < Jc2k> i think if the user wants it, they need to come to #conduit..
 190 13:34 <@sandy> as part of GNOME, there will be yelling if we don't use EDS
 191 13:34 <@boyd> some people have said how tomboy should just expose creating and displaying eds tasks
 192 13:34  * sandy doesn't use Evo and doesn't care about EDS, personally
 193 13:34 < Jc2k> eh
 194 13:34 <@boyd> I've been opposed to it at first
 195 13:34 < orph> no one cares about EDS
 196 13:34 < Eimi> Personally, I won't use it until it's in EDS.  I simply have too much stored there to start duplicating.
 197 13:35 < Jc2k> if you are going to say that, why dont you store tomboy notes in Evo. it has a memo facility..
 198 13:35 <@sandy> well, the memo is a joke
 199 13:35 < orph> Eimi: well, i don't think anyone is proposing importing all the existing EDS todo items as tomboy todos.
 200 13:35 <@sandy> whereas the tasks are more complete
 201 13:36 < maxasdf> orph: syncing will be an issue though.
 202 13:36 <@boyd> I think the real key is that the entire desktop needs ... some centralized place to store stuff like this.  eds happens to be like that to a degree
 203 13:36 <@boyd> tomboy should be one place people can create tasks
 204 13:36 <@boyd> there ought to be a nice widget too
 205 13:36 < kurros> the clock-applet uses EDS, i think thats one visible place why users my want it, but between sync and having the tomboy applet not too far away i'm not sure if its as important
 206 13:36 <@boyd> and maybe a full-on tasks application "pimlico" or whatever it is
 207 13:36 < Eimi> My point is merely that todos that exist outside of EDS don't get sync'd to my palm, where the rest of the todos live, and therefore are way too likely to be forgotten for me to use them.  I may not be typical in that way, of course.
 208 13:36 <@boyd> and they could all tie back into eds
 209 13:37 < Jc2k> Eimi: thats where #conduit comes in. and it will be more than the palm users that benefit.
 210 13:37 < kurros> I think Conduit might help there
 211 13:37 < orph> the other thing is how much UI do you want to add to tomboy tasks?  Evo tasks have a bunch of ui for %complete and due dates etc
 212 13:37 <@boyd> orph: I think we need to keep it simple
 213 13:37 -!- everaldo [~everaldo@189-29-208-8-nd.cpe.vivax.com.br] has joined #tomboy
 214 13:37 < Jc2k> i think if you overload it, it would suck.
 215 13:37 <@sandy> in a TODO note...have "open task in Evo" link at bottom
 216 13:37 < orph> i think if you introduce todos in tomboy, you make them more like notes and lightweight, and less like calendar todo tasks.  more GTD-style.
 217 13:37 <@sandy> or something like that
 218 13:38 < Jc2k> orph: agree 100%
 219 13:38 <@boyd> orph: I agree as well
 220 13:38 <@boyd> I just know we'll have a better "win" if we satisfy people who actually do use evo already
 221 13:38 <@sandy> so if a Tomboy TODO automatically maps to an EDS task, you can edit those details in an app that's designed for it
 222 13:38 < maxasdf> Maybe have a very basic todo note in tomboy + open task in evo if you really want all that % completed etc
 223 13:38 < orph> so that's a good reason to avoid EDS, since you don't want to get roped into "heavy" tasks
 224 13:38 <@boyd> all we realy have to do is abstract the todo storage
 225 13:38 <@boyd> and let users decide
 226 13:38 <@boyd> we don't even have to write the eds part
 227 13:38 < Jc2k> sandy: if conduit is a blessed dep that takes about 4 lines of code
 228 13:39 <@boyd> someone who cares could doit ;)
 229 13:39 < orph> oh oh
 230 13:39 < orph> you could have Evo tasks link like tomboy notes, so if you type the task name, it'd link to the evo task
 231 13:40 <@boyd> sure
 232 13:40 <@sandy> ah, and have a link facility that creats EDS tasks?
 233 13:40 < orph> but that could be separate from tomboy todo items.
 234 13:40 <@sandy> like our note link button
 235 13:40 < orph> sandy: no. just open them in evo.
 236 13:40 <@sandy> I mean for task creation
 237 13:41 <@sandy> if you want to create your task in tomboy
 238 13:41 < orph> then you name a note "TODO: foo" :)
 239 13:41 < orph> why would you create an evo task in tomboy?  can you create an evo task in openoffice?
 240 13:41 < maxasdf> how about right click + create task in evo after that?
 241 13:42 <@sandy> orph: to get it in your palm, to show it in your clock/cal applet, to see it in evo...
 242 13:42 < maxasdf> otherwise all todo: ... would turn up in evo.
 243 13:42 < maxasdf> which might also be confusing if people just type down a long list of todos in a note.
 244 13:43 < orph> sandy: see what in Evo? and Palm tasks are heavy weight just like evo tasks.
 245 13:43 < Jc2k> Conduit would get them into Evo and on to Palm's, Windows Mobile, and Symbian. We could even let their be filters that the user can set so that only certain tasks make this journey.
 246 13:43 <@boyd> orph: you never answered my question btw....have you tried out the tasks stuff in svn trunk?
 247 13:44 < orph> i think there should be a clear separation from heavy "tasks" and light-weight "todos".  tomboy should do todos, and maybe just link to tasks.
 248 13:44 < orph> boyd: nope :)
 249 13:44 <@boyd> orph: ???!!!! ;)
 250 13:44  * Jc2k is nodding in the direction of orph 
 251 13:44 < orph> i hate the menu thing
 252 13:44 <@boyd> heh
 253 13:45 <@boyd> in any case, it appears that we SHOULD keep the tasks ... or the idea of including todos/tasks in tomboy ...
 254 13:45 <@boyd> we can have more todo-specific conversations later ... right?
 255 13:45 < orph> i just want my list of notes.  the standard note list should have a different icon for TODO notes, or maybe a checkbox in the note menu itself
 256 13:46 <@boyd> orph: the todos in the menu is eventually meant to be configurable ... i.e., show it or not
 257 13:46 < orph> i think todos should just be a flavor of note, one that means it can be "completed"
 258 13:46 < orph> anything else has really weird Evo crossover conflicts.
 259 13:46 <@boyd> orph: here's where I think that might break down ... if you have to create a new note/separate window for every todo ...
 260 13:47 < orph> not to mention that i haven't run evo in like 2 years :)
 261 13:47 <@boyd> if you're taking meeting notes and writing down a bunch of todo items
 262 13:47 <@boyd> you want them all in the same note
 263 13:47 <@boyd> not a bunch of different windows
 264 13:47 <@boyd> you know, like a bulleted list?
 265 13:47 < orph> well in that case you certainly don't want each one to be an Evo task
 266 13:48 <@boyd> I guess if you needed to make more detailed notes about the todo, you could then have it create/open a real todo-style note
 267 13:48 < orph> you could have a shortcut for it
 268 13:48 <@boyd> yeah, I'm not referring to evo at all
 269 13:48 <@boyd> I could care less about it
 270 13:48 < orph> like [] at the start of a line creates an auto-link todo item
 271 13:48 < maxasdf> boyd: can't we create todos as links without opening the linked note. So one could keep typing and maybe never create that note?
 272 13:48 <@boyd> maxasdf: absolutely!
 273 13:48 < orph> clicking it would open a new todo note
 274 13:49 <@boyd> orph: perfect! :)
 275 13:49 <@boyd> let's morph what we currently have to do this
 276 13:49 < orph> oh man, that would be sexy
 277 13:49 <@boyd> and we'll leave the whole evo thing out for now ... and Jc2k can work his magic of getting them into evo for everyone ;)
 278 13:50 < maxasdf> would be a cool addin.
 279 13:50 <@sandy> intresting idea to make Conduit a dependency of Tomboy, too
 280 13:50  * Jc2k dances excitedly
 281 13:50 < orph> eek
 282 13:50 <@boyd> sandy: not a dep of tomboy
 283 13:50 <@sandy> well, I meant optional
 284 13:50 <@boyd> maybe of the tasks-evo-addin
 285 13:50 <@sandy> fair enough
 286 13:50 <@boyd> okay then...next?  Tagging!!!! ???
 287 13:51 < orph> heh
 288 13:51 <@sandy> I actually liked the tagging ui in each note
 289 13:51  * orph needs coffee.  back in 5.
 290 13:51 <@boyd> sandy: yeah, I like it there too.  I think it just needs a little more love
 291 13:52 <@boyd> the UI in the search window was horrible IMO
 292 13:52 <@boyd> but we still ought to have something in there
 293 13:52 <@sandy> yeah
 294 13:52 <@boyd> when we first started looking into tagging ... the main motivation, at least for me, was to build a solution for notebooks
 295 13:52 <@boyd> i.e, I want to have a "Personal" notebook
 296 13:52 <@boyd> or a "Work" notebook
 297 13:52 <@boyd> or a "Project A" and a "Project B" notebook
 298 13:53 < Jc2k> f-spot has a handy keyboard shortcut for attaching tags without the mouse. i think it would be good to have that same idea, if not the same shortcut..
 299 13:53 <@sandy> yeah, categorization of some sort is necessary the more I think about it
 300 13:53 <@sandy> especially wrt sync
 301 13:53 <@boyd> so that I could go into "Project A"-mode and all the notes I see, search, create...go into my project a notebook
 302 13:53 <@boyd> well, I think we can do categorization with tags
 303 13:54 <@boyd> but it would be nice to figure out an easy way to do this visually
 304 13:54 <@boyd> so the user doesn't just have to come up with it themselves
 305 13:54 <@boyd> something like f-spot (like Jc2k mentioned) might work, though I still haven't been sold on the way it works
 306 13:54 <@sandy> boyd: so you're saying a notebook-like UI?
 307 13:54 <@sandy> instead of the user manually tagging?
 308 13:55 <@sandy> a sort of suggested use of tags?
 309 13:55 <@boyd> sandy: that'd be one option
 310 13:55 -!- Demitar [~demitar@c-212-031-182-147.cust.broadway.se] has joined #tomboy
 311 13:55 < Jc2k> the shortcut was more for power users, rather than the only way to tag.
 312 13:55 <@boyd> at least for the search window
 313 13:55 <@boyd> in the search window, some of the main tags should be visible on the left/right-hand side or something (optionall)
 314 13:55 <@boyd> (optionally)
 315 13:56 <@boyd> and the user could quickly filter their list by selecting a tag
 316 13:56 <@sandy> boyd: do you have a screenshot of the work you were doing?
 317 13:56 <@sandy> the epiphany-style UI?
 318 13:56 <@boyd> I thought I did somewhere
 319 13:56 <@boyd> maybe not
 320 13:56 < Eimi> Should it be possible to have more than one note with the same title, but different tags?  (For instance, notes named "Project Summary" for both Project A and Project B)
 321 13:56 <@boyd> Eimi: not sure
 322 13:56 <@boyd> Eimi: though that's a good point
 323 13:56 <@sandy> everybody: It looks like we'll be running later than an hour...I will be posting an IRC log for anyone who is concerned about missing anything
 324 13:56 < Jc2k> no it shouldnt, because then they are no longer tags
 325 13:57 <@boyd> yeah, I don't really like making tags part of the title
 326 13:57 <@boyd> but that's an interesting point anyhow
 327 13:57 < Eimi> I can see good points for both ways (well, actually I can see bad points for both ways).
 328 13:57 <@sandy> Eimi: that sounds like something heavier than tags
 329 13:57 <@boyd> tomboy still has to remain as easy as it has always been ... so that someone who doesn't use tags isn't pestered by their existence
 330 13:58  * sandy brainstorms
 331 13:58 <@boyd> I've seen some os x note-taking apps that I like a lot
 332 13:58 <@sandy> maybe in the recent notes menu, you can add "notebook" entries for specified tags?
 333 13:58 <@sandy> or maybe that sort of UI should only be in the Search window...
 334 13:59 <@sandy> but it might be neat to have quick access to all notes tagged "Work"
 335 13:59 <@boyd> or ... you could move tomboy into a "Work" mode?
 336 13:59 <@boyd> so that all notes you see/create automatically get the "Work" tag applied?
 337 13:59 <@sandy> yeah, that is more like the notebook idea
 338 13:59 < Jc2k> i like that idea
 339 13:59 <@sandy> modes are tricky
 340 13:59 < Jc2k> hmm
 341 14:00 <@sandy> especially for something like Tomboy, which eschews modes in so many ways
 342 14:00 <@boyd> just an idea ;)
 343 14:00 <@sandy> oh, I think it's a good idea
 344 14:00 < Jc2k> perhaps that can be an addin?
 345 14:00 <@boyd> heh
 346 14:00 <@sandy> just not sure how to do that in the UI
 347 14:00 < Jc2k> rather than forcing it on everyone?
 348 14:00 <@boyd> Jc2k: yeah, definitely
 349 14:01 <@boyd> I think when you put tomboy into a specific tag "mode", you'd have to conscientiously (sp?) do so
 350 14:01 <@sandy> and how would you know you're in a mode?
 351 14:01 <@boyd> it'd be apparent in the main menu, each note window, and the search window
 352 14:01 <@boyd> maybe a colored menuitem in the menu, a bar in the note, a toggled button in the search window
 353 14:01 <@boyd> I think there are ways
 354 14:02 <@sandy> but see, at that level, I think you almost want to be able to switch between entirely different note collections
 355 14:02 <@boyd> we could definitely experiment with it
 356 14:02 <@boyd> sandy: :)
 357 14:02 < Eimi> Presumably when you're in a mode, you can still link to notes that don't have that tag...even though they don't show up in the lists
 358 14:02 <@sandy> different Tomboy instances for each notebook
 359 14:03 < Jc2k> sandy: ouch for conduit :P
 360 14:03 <@sandy> Eimi: that's a very interesting questionto consider
 361 14:03 < Jc2k> ouch for dbus..
 362 14:03 <@boyd> sandy: one drawback (could just be on implementation) is ... it'd possibly be more difficult to link to notes in multiple collections
 363 14:03 <@sandy> well, maybe each Tomboy applet talks to a tomboy singleton via dbus...
 364 14:03 <@boyd> I don't like the idea of different collections
 365 14:03 <@sandy> who knows?
 366 14:03 <@boyd> harder to search, link, etc.
 367 14:04 <@boyd> but it could be possible
 368 14:04 < maxasdf> where do you need the "collections" but in the main menu?
 369 14:04 < Jc2k> sandy: that would be good, and means its easy for dbus based automatic testing of stuff without screwing your main notes!
 370 14:04 <@boyd> we definitely need something like that!  I could actually use tomboy again as a standard user!
 371 14:05 < Jc2k> me too xD
 372 14:05 <@sandy> boyd: on this laptop I'm using Tomboy Hackweek Edition
 373 14:05 <@sandy> never use this thing
 374 14:05 < orph> why not just have a tags sidebar that you toggle the visibility of from the toolbar?
 375 14:05 <@boyd> that's also fix this bug: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=251406 - tomboy has problems if running multiple gnome sessions
 376 14:05 <@sandy> orph: in the Search window?
 377 14:05 < orph> that lists out all the tags and lets you type a new one with autocomplete?
 378 14:05 <@boyd> orph: yeah, we kind of had that
 379 14:05 <@boyd> the ui wasn't ready for 0.8 so we disabled it
 380 14:05 < orph> sandy: sure, but in regular note windows too
 381 14:06 <@boyd> it just needs some tender loving care now
 382 14:06 < segphault> anybody seen the Zim notetaking program? Doesn't provide the same level of usability as Tomboy, but it might be a good source of inspiration
 383 14:06 <@boyd> the other thing that would be interesting (maybe implemented via addins) would be operations that can be done on all the notes listed in the search window
 384 14:06 < segphault> http://pardus-larus.student.utwente.nl/~pardus//projects/zim/images/screenshots/zim_1.png
 385 14:06 <@boyd> so you could filter by tag and then export to HTML
 386 14:06 <@boyd> or export to a blog, etc.
 387 14:07 <@boyd> or export to email ... or sync to someone/etc.
 388 14:07 <@sandy> segphault: interesting
 389 14:07 < maxasdf> That sounds really sweet.
 390 14:07 < orph> boyd: that's a nice idea
 391 14:07 <@sandy> how does that scale with lots of tags?
 392 14:07 <@sandy> oh, nevermind
 393 14:07 <@sandy> misread the screenshot
 394 14:08 <@sandy> boyd: definiteloy
 395 14:08 <@boyd> well, essentially, the tagging stuff just needs a willing person to hack on it and bring it back to life!
 396 14:08 <@sandy> there's a bug for reports that applies there
 397 14:08 <@boyd> as long as it doesn't screw up tomboy's basic functionality, it's a no-brainer in my opinion to get it going
 398 14:09 <@sandy> yeah, the current version plus search ui cleanups is very unobtrusive
 399 14:09 <@boyd> any volunteers to make it rock ?
 400 14:09 < orph> ya, that's why i think a simple sidebar would work best with a "Tags" toggle button in the toolbar
 401 14:09 <@boyd> come on all you closet hackers!
 402 14:09 <@sandy> :-)
 403 14:09  * orph has too many projects to juggle :-/
 404 14:10 <@boyd> a lot of the code is already written, it really just needs some good UI love
 405 14:10 <@sandy> boyd: let's turn tags back on
 406 14:10 <@sandy> blog, send out emails, etc
 407 14:10 <@sandy> maybe this cycle we'll actually get bugs for it?
 408 14:10 <@boyd> action item: I'll get them back into trunk
 409 14:10 <@sandy> patches, too?
 410 14:10  * boyd likes patches!
 411 14:10 <@boyd> sandy: okay, anything we need to do with sync?
 412 14:11 <@sandy> I'm glad you asked...
 413 14:11 < Jc2k> :)
 414 14:11 <@sandy> so I talked with orph a little before feature freeze
 415 14:11 <@sandy> he had some really good ideas
 416 14:11 <@sandy> I'd like to eliminate as much sync UI as possible
 417 14:11 <@boyd> I don't feel comfortable relying on conduit for it until conduit is part of gnome
 418 14:11  * boyd hides from Jc2k
 419 14:11  * Jc2k kicks boyd hard
 420 14:11 <@boyd> ouch!
 421 14:11 <@sandy> sync should happen in the b ackground periodically
 422 14:12 <@sandy> and "just work"
 423 14:12 <@boyd> sandy: I like that idea
 424 14:12 <@sandy> you should onlyget bugged if tyhere's a conflict
 425 14:12 < Jc2k> we are working on that and putting together a "blessed depenedency" proposal
 426 14:12 <@sandy> there are some issues with whether a user should be able to use Tomboy during a sync operation
 427 14:12 < Jc2k> eh, re periodically... we put dbus events in there for a reason ;)
 428 14:12 <@boyd> Jc2k: hope you hurry, the new module proposal for gnome 2.22 is quickly approaching
 429 14:12 <@sandy> Jc2k: constant sync might be a bit much
 430 14:12 <@sandy> every 4 seconds while you're working ona note?
 431 14:13 <@boyd> sandy: perhaps snapshots could be taken and synced
 432 14:13 < Jc2k> sandy: good point :P
 433 14:13 <@sandy> yeah, that's what I was thinking
 434 14:13 <@boyd> the snapshot syncs and the user continues working on the main list
 435 14:13 <@sandy> and use libnotify
 436 14:13 <@sandy> when there's a conflict
 437 14:13 < orph> ya, just pipeline the syncing
 438 14:13 <@boyd> and if something changes in the meantime, it syncs again later
 439 14:13 <@sandy> change Tomboy icon
 440 14:13 <@sandy> yadda yadda
 441 14:14 <@sandy> sexy notify lets you add links, so clicking the notify bubble could open the conflicting note or whatever
 442 14:14 < Jc2k> boyd: johns blog hints at whats happening.
 443 14:14 <@sandy> if you're reading a note, and it's updated, you get gedit-style reload bar
 444 14:14 <@sandy> I think that's it
 445 14:15 <@boyd> sandy: that's awesome :)
 446 14:15 <@sandy> so under most circumstances there's very little sync UI
 447 14:15 <@sandy> the other end
 448 14:15 <@sandy> is configuration
 449 14:15 < orph> yay
 450 14:15 <@sandy> I want NO CONFIGURATION
 451 14:15 < orph> me too!
 452 14:15 <@sandy> but that requires something built into the desktop
 453 14:15 <@boyd> ah, yes.
 454 14:15 <@sandy> so I'd like to talke to Havoc agagin
 455 14:15 < orph> or maybe a gstorage backend or something
 456 14:15  * sandy can't type on this laptop
 457 14:16 <@boyd> will that be ready by feature freeze?
 458 14:16 < orph> google just opened up their storage api
 459 14:16 <@sandy> no way?
 460 14:16 <@sandy> should check that out
 461 14:16 <@boyd> orph: seriously!!!
 462 14:16 < orph> we could use that as a fire to get online desktop to do what we need
 463 14:16 <@sandy> boyd: I can do the UI stuff
 464 14:16 <@sandy> the online desktop stuff depends on what's needed
 465 14:16 <@boyd> I wonder if anyone has written a fuse-fs for the new google api
 466 14:17 <@sandy> if we can use some FUSE fs (like WebDAV) to get the notes to online.gnome.org, then that's easy
 467 14:17 <@boyd> if we can sync directly to someone's google acct. w/o it screwing up how their email looks, I say we add that in ASAP!
 468 14:17 <@sandy> if I have to work on the server side, it's not as easy
 469 14:17 <@sandy> boyd: yup
 470 14:17 <@boyd> I mean, who doesn't have a gmail account nowadays? ;)
 471 14:17 <@sandy> too bad gmailfs didn't work for us
 472 14:17 <@sandy> that would have kicked ass
 473 14:18 <@boyd> agreed
 474 14:18 <@boyd> I imagine someone will have something similar
 475 14:18 <@sandy> yeah
 476 14:18 <@sandy> so zero-or-really-easy-config for sync is important
 477 14:18 <@sandy> I'd honestly rather get the UI improved
 478 14:18 <@sandy> as the higher priority
 479 14:19 <@sandy> maybe that's just me being embarassed about the current UI
 480 14:19 <@boyd> sandy: you're right w/ that approach
 481 14:19 <@sandy> easier config means more users
 482 14:19 < Jc2k> any plans for device sync ;)
 483 14:19 <@sandy> Jc2k: Conduit does that, yeah?
 484 14:19 < Jc2k> yeah!
 485 14:19 <@sandy> so why should we? :-)
 486 14:19 < Jc2k> well, ipod xD
 487 14:19 <@boyd> maybe long-term, but I don't see it as a huge "gotta-have" for tomboy users
 488 14:20 < Jc2k> sandy: i could turn that around on u but i cbs
 489 14:20 < Jc2k> cba even
 490 14:20 <@sandy> yeah, I jsut realized that
 491 14:20 <@sandy> :-P
 492 14:20 < Jc2k> i have 10m of power :(
 493 14:20 <@boyd> okay, so the revamp of note renaming behavior ???
 494 14:20 <@boyd> that work ties in with the earlier-mentioned title issues I think
 495 14:21 <@sandy> I want notes named "git" and "bzr" and "whateverthehelliwant"
 496 14:21 <@sandy> I don't want my content changing when I rename those notes
 497 14:21 <@boyd> sandy: good luck!
 498 14:21 <@sandy> is that sacreligious?
 499 14:21 <@sandy> solves the whole problem
 500 14:21 <@boyd> yeah, I guess if we don't automatically rename, then it would
 501 14:21 <@sandy> optionally, maybe user can get prompted "you renamed this note, want to update links in these notes?"
 502 14:22 < orph> i think enforcing good names is an easy enough thing to do
 503 14:22 <@sandy> I don't want to be enforced
 504 14:22  * sandy shrugs
 505 14:22  * Jc2k nods
 506 14:22 < orph> i force myself to use good names because i've lost stuff too often, or had note content corrupted
 507 14:22 <@sandy> I have never once used the auto-link-update feature
 508 14:22 < maxasdf> How about not automatically linking each time a title appears somewhere else?
 509 14:23 < Eimi> I have never once *intended* to use the auto-link-update "feature".  I've been screwed by it a few times, though.
 510 14:23 < orph> the problem is that in tomboy, changing a name without updating the link means that you're screwed, because it's such a big flat namespace.  you'll probably lose track of the renamed note.
 511 14:23 <@sandy> I really disagree
 512 14:23 <@sandy> I think search fixes that
 513 14:23 <@sandy> and how often do you rename notes with long titles?
 514 14:24 < orph> not when you haven't looked at a cluster of notes in a year
 515 14:24 <@sandy> well, you have enough clues, imho
 516 14:24 <@sandy> you have the broken link with the old note name
 517 14:24 <@boyd> would there be another solution possibly?  i.e., don't rename other note content, but flag that title so it appears differently?  so you could click on it and navigate to the new page?
 518 14:24 < Jc2k> brb guys
 519 14:24 < maxasdf> sandy: if you have a note named git - do you want all occurences of "git" to link there?
 520 14:24 < Eimi> This brings me back to something I was wondering about before; is there a way to get a list of orphaned notes (with no backlinks), without complicating the interface too much?
 521 14:24 <@sandy> maxasdf: yes!
 522 14:25 <@boyd> sandy: there is?
 523 14:25 <@sandy> and when I rename "git" to "why git sucks", I want a bunch of broken links
 524 14:25 <@boyd> whoops, I misread
 525 14:25 < orph> boyd: i thought about that. you could have the link actually include the uuid of the note it's linked to.
 526 14:25 <@boyd> orph: right
 527 14:25 <@sandy> right, so we could have more complicated linking, too, as a possible solution
 528 14:25 <@sandy> people have asked for that
 529 14:25 <@sandy> not sure my thoughts on it
 530 14:25 < orph> sandy: or you're just sick of "git" linking in a bunch of places you don't expect.
 531 14:26 <@sandy> well, that's a good point
 532 14:26 < Eimi> I would really love a way to find or remove all broken links.
 533 14:26 <@sandy> my solution doesn't fix that particular irritating problem
 534 14:26  * boyd starts whimpering thinking about TextIters and TextBuffers
 535 14:26 < orph> sandy: that's the point of making the naming rules more strict.  you avoid accidental linking in the first place.
 536 14:26 <@sandy> Eimi: there's a bug for that, I think Boyd wrote an andd-in to fix those
 537 14:26 <@sandy> we should include that add-in
 538 14:27 <@boyd> I don't remember doing that
 539 14:27 <@boyd> ;)
 540 14:27 < maxasdf> How about typing ->git if you want a link?
 541 14:27 < orph> there's a reason WikiWikiNames look like they do, it's to avoid accidental linking.
 542 14:27 <@sandy> well, somebody wrote something to clean broken linnks...
 543 14:27 <@sandy> orph: there's a reason most wikis don't use those anymore
 544 14:27 <@sandy> or require them, at least
 545 14:27 < orph> sandy: ya, they use explicit linking.  that's hard to do with a WYSIWYG.
 546 14:28 <@sandy> true true
 547 14:28 <@sandy> maxasdf: I usually like unexpected automatic linking
 548 14:28 <@sandy> "oh yeah, I had a whole note about 'git'!"
 549 14:28 <@sandy> that sort of thing happens all the time
 550 14:29 < maxasdf> i see. I really liked it for some time as well.
 551 14:29 -!- dave_largo [~drichard@64-132-254-110.static.twtelecom.net] has quit [Client exiting]
 552 14:29 <@sandy> but I see what you and orph are saying about linking in "agitha" or whatever
 553 14:29 < orph> also
 554 14:30 <@sandy> okay, I'm not seeing any "oh oh" brilliant ideas to solve this here and now
 555 14:30 < maxasdf> But it gets you into trouble if you have a "git" and a "why git sucks" note and type why git sucks...
 556 14:30  * sandy recants, waits for orph to finish
 557 14:30 < orph> you could just not auto-link single word notes
 558 14:30 < orph> you can always select the single word and click the link button if you want the link
 559 14:30 <@boyd> that only partially solves the problem.  it would still  exist with >1 word notes
 560 14:30 <@sandy> again everyone, for refverene we are discussing this bug: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=350990
 561 14:31 <@boyd> disabling auto-linking is an interesting idea
 562 14:31 < orph> boyd: right, but the risk of corruption is much much lower with multiple word notes, and the risk of link loss much higher
 563 14:32 < maxasdf> I think there are two ways people are using this. 
 564 14:32 < maxasdf> Maybe you could allow choosing to enable WikiWords and renaming or disable both?
 565 14:32 <@sandy> action item for me: sum up proposed approaches to solving note renaming problem
 566 14:32 <@boyd> orph: I agree, but the problem will still bite some people ... and we'll continue getting complaints, albeit the problem won't be encountered as often
 567 14:32 < Eimi> Instead of disallowing notes with short titles, what if renaming them didn't edit anything?
 568 14:32 < Eimi> I'd rather renaming notes never change anything else, but at least if it only changed for multi-word titles, it would prevent a lot of breakage.
 569 14:33 < orph> i mean, i think the only problem is that people have accidentally linked words they didn't expect, and have those notes change content out from under them when they rename a note.
 570 14:33 <@sandy> probably rare enough situation to solve with a dialog, imho
 571 14:33 < orph> both of those go away if you limit the number of crapily named notes.
 572 14:33 < maxasdf> How about only renaming WikiWords? 
 573 14:33 <@sandy> for that approach, we have a pretty good patch
 574 14:33 <@sandy> from Boyd
 575 14:34 <@sandy> that just needs some cleanup, I think
 576 14:34 < orph> sandy: ya, thought about that originally.  the problem is what does the dialog say?  "some notes link to this one, do you want to update them?"  do you then list them out, let people open the notes, have checkboxes to select which ones to update, or what?
 577 14:34 < Eimi> But preventing crapily named notes adds more cognitive load for note naming.  If I *want* a note named "git", I don't want to have to think too hard about what else I would name it.
 578 14:34 <@sandy> orph: yeah, I'd probably prefer the complicated version of that dialog
 579 14:34 <@sandy> checkboxes, etc
 580 14:35 < orph> ya, screw that :)
 581 14:35 <@sandy> I'm not saying it's elegant
 582 14:35 <@sandy> I'm trying to optimize for the 80% case
 583 14:35 <@sandy> and I really do believe people want to be able to name their ntoes whatever they want
 584 14:35 <@sandy> but I'll drop it for now :-)
 585 14:35 < orph> well, i'd argue that the 80% case is that people just want to rename a note, and have things update accordingly.
 586 14:36 < Eimi> I'd suggest "14 notes link to the note you just renamed.  If you don't update them, they will no longer link to it.  You can also obtain a list of notes to update manually." with buttons for "Update", "Break links" and "List notes".
 587 14:36 < Jc2k> i want to name my notes whatever i want :'( and i want things to update too :'(
 588 14:36 <@sandy> stupid users!
 589 14:36 <@boyd> oh boy ;)
 590 14:36 < orph> sandy: so maybe just not autolinking single-word notes is the better approach.
 591 14:36 <@sandy> Jc2k: stop *wanting*
 592 14:37 < Jc2k> :P
 593 14:37 <@sandy> perhaps
 594 14:37 <@sandy> I'll document all of this stuff on the bug later tonight
 595 14:37 <@boyd> again, looks like someone should hack up some code and give it a whirl!  :)
 596 14:37 < orph> i've only really had the problem with badly named notes.  have people seen this in other cases?
 597 14:37 <@sandy> that's true, people accidentally name a note 'a'
 598 14:38 <@sandy> that's the biggest complaint we've seen
 599 14:38 < orph> or use a common dictionary word
 600 14:38 <@sandy> it's not normally going from good name 1 to good name 2
 601 14:38 <@boyd> I think the safest approach is to require users to name their notes with a full 10-word sentence :)
 602 14:38 <@sandy> in iambic pentameter
 603 14:38 -!- slomo [~slomo@f049173181.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ex-Chat]
 604 14:38 <@boyd> ...or at least warn them when we detect a note title that is suspicious
 605 14:38 < orph> hah, now there's an add-in i'd love to see!
 606 14:39 <@boyd> ...or an add-in that spins the wheel for a randomly-named title :)
 607 14:39 <@sandy> alright, next issue?
 608 14:39 <@sandy> Scalability?
 609 14:39 <@boyd> seriously though, I think requiring a note title with a certain length/# of words is obviously the safest, just not the most convenient for users
 610 14:39 <@boyd> yes, next topic!
 611 14:39 < orph> speaking of randomly named title, do people want to replace the "new note 123" with a timestamp?
 612 14:40 <@boyd> orph: I've heard that feedback a lot, yes
 613 14:40 <@sandy> yeah, we should probably just go ahead and do that
 614 14:40  * maxasdf would like it too.
 615 14:40 <@boyd> though it gets kind of hard to read a list of notes that way sometimes
 616 14:40 < orph> i was originally against it, because i found through trial and error that timestamped notes meant i didn't rename them right away
 617 14:40 <@boyd> but, let the users pick!
 618 14:40 <@sandy> anyone care that I changed the new note title selection behavior?
 619 14:40 <@boyd> sandy: to what?
 620 14:40 <@sandy> I think orph's suggestion helps that
 621 14:40 < orph> whereas using a lame note title like "new note 123" meant i always rename it right away
 622 14:40 <@sandy> create new note, select content
 623 14:41 <@sandy> used to be: create new note, selct title
 624 14:41 <@sandy> so you don't have to rename before you start typing content
 625 14:41 <@sandy> I like the change
 626 14:41 <@boyd> sandy: I hit that same thing TODAY!
 627 14:41 <@sandy> and I think changing the default new note title makes it even more obvious
 628 14:41 < orph> huh?  it was always select the content on new note creation!
 629 14:41 <@boyd> orph: really?
 630 14:41 < orph> ya!  when did that change?
 631 14:42 <@boyd> orph: you sure? ;)
 632 14:42 <@sandy> well, it changed at some point
 633 14:42 < orph> Tomboy 0.6.3 that I have installed does it.
 634 14:42 <@boyd> well, in any case, we need to change it back then
 635 14:42 <@sandy> I did that alraedy
 636 14:42  * boyd hopes he's not the one to blame
 637 14:42 < Eimi> If you change the default new note title, then Note of the Day becomes pretty much obsolete
 638 14:42 <@boyd> Eimi: possibly
 639 14:42 <@sandy> clarifying:
 640 14:43  * orph actually really likes the "new note 123" thing
 641 14:43 < orph> in fact, i love it
 642 14:43 < orph> but i'll cede to the crowd :->
 643 14:43 <@boyd> orph: what a good little boy :)
 644 14:43  * sandy looks up bug
 645 14:44  * sandy is using old TOmboy on this laptop
 646 14:44 <@sandy> 
 647 14:44 <@sandy> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=449478
 648 14:44 <@sandy> whoops
 649 14:44 <@sandy> had it backwards
 650 14:44 <@sandy> but I now agree we should change it back to the way it was
 651 14:44 <@sandy> select content, not title
 652 14:44 <@sandy> if the note title is more useful than New note 123
 653 14:45 < orph> selecting content is extremely important
 654 14:45 <@sandy> I like my last comment on that bug...nobody ever noticed the change!
 655 14:45 <@boyd> I agree
 656 14:45 < orph> did tomboy ship with title selection??
 657 14:45 <@sandy> well, we can change that for 0.8.1 without bothering anybody
 658 14:45 <@boyd> sandy: I noticed it this morning when I wanted to start typing immediately
 659 14:45 <@sandy> orph: yes
 660 14:45 < orph> fuck!
 661 14:46  * orph waits for 0.8.1 ;-)
 662 14:46  * sandy fired?
 663 14:46 < orph> no way dude!
 664 14:46 <@boyd> I'd almost prefer to have EVERYTHING (title and content) selected
 665 14:46 <@boyd> I never keep either of them around
 666 14:46 <@sandy> okay, action item for me
 667 14:46 <@sandy> unfuck tomboy
 668 14:47 < orph> boyd: nah, then you end up with titles that don't make any sense when you start typing
 669 14:47 <@boyd> this is starting to remind me of boston summit 2006
 670 14:47 <@boyd> orph: I wouldn't, but maybe you would!  ;)
 671 14:47 <@sandy> maybe I can sneak in change from "New Note 123" to timestamp, too
 672 14:47 <@sandy> boyd: new users would, I'm sure
 673 14:47 <@sandy> since it's so free form
 674 14:47 <@boyd> sandy: you're prob. right
 675 14:48 <@sandy> okay, glad we discussed that
 676 14:48 < orph> i would suggest trying out the timestamp thing before committing it.  watch to see if you end up renaming notes as much as you do now.
 677 14:48 < orph> i didn't
 678 14:48 <@sandy> ah, which you're saying is abd
 679 14:48 <@sandy> bad
 680 14:48 < orph> ya
 681 14:48 <@sandy> gotcha
 682 14:48 <@sandy> user gains a lot from naming their notes well
 683 14:48 <@boyd> well ... that goes back to a discussion we had a long time ago ...
 684 14:48 < orph> exactly :)
 685 14:48 <@boyd> let the user set up how it's named in the preferences
 686 14:49 <@boyd> Note 123, Date/Time, etc.
 687 14:49 <@sandy> same problem...I think
 688 14:49 <@sandy> not that I'm saying we shouldn't do it
 689 14:49 < orph> boyd: maybe a hidden pref, but i suspect there's an optimal title
 690 14:49 <@sandy> but if there's a default that they like, they won't make better names
 691 14:49 <@boyd> orph: you're such an optimist :)
 692 14:49 < orph> ya, there's a bunch of head fakes in tomboy
 693 14:49 <@boyd> hidden pref is fine
 694 14:50 < orph> the new note title is one of them :)
 695 14:50 <@sandy> oh, I forgot to mention
 696 14:50 <@sandy> wrt sync
 697 14:50 <@sandy> I'd like to be able to sync based on tag
 698 14:51 <@sandy> is anyone opposed to that
 699 14:51 <@boyd> sandy: it just complicates things a LOT
 700 14:51 <@sandy> well, I'll write up a little design before coding
 701 14:51 <@sandy> I don't think it's too bad
 702 14:51 <@boyd> k
 703 14:51 <@sandy> I have some notes somewhere about it
 704 14:51 <@sandy> lets me not sync ponitless work stuff back to home, or personal stuff to my compnay-controlled computer
 705 14:51 <@sandy> etc
 706 14:52 <@boyd> right, I understand the use case 
 707 14:52 <@boyd> just might be hard to have it not muddy the "ease of use" waters
 708 14:52 <@sandy> alright, I won't do it without convincing you
 709 14:52 <@sandy> :-)
 710 14:52 <@sandy> I'll write something up
 711 14:52 <@boyd> cool
 712 14:52 <@boyd> so ... scaling?
 713 14:52 <@boyd> anyone want to champion building an index on top of all the notes?
 714 14:53 < orph> the problem with partial syncing is that there's a big screwage factor.
 715 14:53 <@boyd> (wow, this mtg. is super long)
 716 14:53 < orph> like you're working on a note, and forget to tag it, and then tomorrow at work you don't have it.
 717 14:53 <@sandy> orph: you're right
 718 14:53 <@sandy> but the default would be to sync everything
 719 14:53 <@sandy> so only nitpicky users would use that feature
 720 14:54  * boyd wonders how many non-hackers use sync
 721 14:54 <@sandy> once it's easy enough
 722 14:54 <@sandy> I think we'll see more people using it
 723 14:54 < Jc2k> i support SynCE quite a bit, there are plent of non-hackers who want to use that...
 724 14:54 < orph> boyd: very few currently.  if it's made easy and low screwage factor, i think everyone would.
 725 14:55 < orph> bulletpoints and syncing were always the big feature requests
 726 14:55 <@boyd> orph: you're assuming everyone runs linux everywhere
 727 14:55 <@sandy> well, this of course leads to various ports
 728 14:55 <@sandy> Maemo, Windows, whatever
 729 14:55  * boyd would love a port to os x
 730 14:55 <@sandy> that would be hardest
 731 14:56 <@boyd> or to web 2.0
 732 14:56 <@sandy> can't do gtk
 733 14:56 <@sandy> and so much of TOmboy is UI
 734 14:56 < Jc2k> does tomboy handle syncing two partially initialised datasets (as in, "fred" has A,B and "barney" has C,D)
 735 14:56 <@boyd> if I had the time/motivation, I'd write an osx-based tomboy :)
 736 14:56 < Jc2k> if i had the time and osx i'd write osx conduit...
 737 14:56 -!- s4kito [~s4kito@189.193.86.147] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
 738 14:57 <@sandy> Jc2k: no, it doesn't
 739 14:57 <@sandy> alright, so wrt scalability
 740 14:57 <@sandy> our dbus interface is starting to rock
 741 14:57 <@boyd> I haven't seen many complaints lately abt. memory suckage
 742 14:57 <@sandy> could use some more stuff (like search)
 743 14:57 <@sandy> but we could write some tests pretty easily in python or wahtever
 744 14:58 <@sandy> to do things like add 10K noteds
 745 14:58 <@boyd> or many things wrt slowing down with large # of notes
 746 14:58 < segphault> is there documentation for the dbus api anywhere?
 747 14:58 <@sandy> and then time certain actions
 748 14:58 <@boyd> yeah, tests would be good!
 749 14:58 <@boyd> segphault: in the code ;)
 750 14:58 < segphault> lol ok
 751 14:58 <@boyd> segphault: I don't know that anyone has written it up formally
 752 14:58 <@sandy> once sync is mo' betta', I'd really like to start writing up a good test suite for Tomboy
 753 14:58 <@boyd> segphault: I'm sure Jc2k would be up for documenting it though, right? ;)
 754 14:59 < maxasdf> segphault: i found it rather easy to figure out.
 755 14:59 <@sandy> segphault: actually, the code is pretty decent documentation
 756 14:59 < segphault> I was thinking of writing a short Tomboy D-Bus tutorial
 757 14:59 <@sandy> just a list of very simple methods
 758 14:59 < segphault> I'm from Ars Technica btw, in case you all hadn't figured that out yet. ;-)
 759 14:59 <@boyd> if someone could take the action item of testing large scale notes ...
 760 14:59 < orph> maybe we should start a wiki page with all the little tomboy UI tricks that effect usability.
 761 14:59 <@boyd> and report back
 762 14:59 < Jc2k> conduit has a python script that dumps the tomboy interface
 763 14:59 <@sandy> segphault: read you all the time, so yeah
 764 15:00 <@boyd> then we'd have a better idea what we're up against as far as scalability issues
 765 15:00 < segphault> :-)
 766 15:00 <@boyd> ...and we'd have something to test against
 767 15:00 <@sandy> startup time started hurting with additon of Mono.addins
 768 15:00 <@sandy> not sure what we can do to fix that
 769 15:00 <@boyd> orph: good idea
 770 15:00 < orph> oh really?  what's the slowdown?
 771 15:00 <@sandy> probably M.A initialization stuff?
 772 15:00 <@boyd> it just takes longer to load the addins vs. the plugins
 773 15:00 <@boyd> yeah, it does m.a stuff
 774 15:01 <@boyd> checking different directories, etc.
 775 15:01 <@sandy> if it were just instantiation, the solution is easy
 776 15:01 <@sandy> right
 777 15:01 <@boyd> I don't think it's a huge problem really
 778 15:01 <@sandy> no, but I hate seeing startup time climb
 779 15:01 <@boyd> since you start tomboy up and then ... it essentially stays on from then on out
 780 15:01 <@boyd> agreed.
 781 15:01 < orph> could the addins be initialized in a thread?
 782 15:01 <@sandy> because it increases login time
 783 15:01 <@boyd> orph: guess it depends on the addin
 784 15:01 <@sandy> good point
 785 15:02 <@sandy> some might need to be loaded before clicking menu, etc
 786 15:02 <@boyd> we've introduced a new "application" addin that gets a chance to do stuff as soon as tomboy gets churning
 787 15:03 <@boyd> I like the idea of a NoteWindowAddin
 788 15:03 <@boyd> not sure who recommended that, but there's no reason to load an addin automatically for every single non-opened note.
 789 15:03 <@sandy> yeah, that was me
 790 15:03 <@boyd> Backlinks could be changed to use that
 791 15:04 <@sandy> and Print
 792 15:04 <@boyd> yup
 793 15:04 <@sandy> a couple others
 794 15:04 < orph> neat
 795 15:04 <@sandy> okay, so we'll need to do tests and take measurements
 796 15:04 <@sandy> for scalability
 797 15:04 <@boyd> yep
 798 15:04 <@sandy> see if users are complaining, though
 799 15:05  * sandy writes action item to investigate, document any reported slowdowns, write test cases, etc
 800 15:05 <@boyd> these action items could possibly just be part of the RoadMap?
 801 15:05 <@sandy> probably
 802 15:06 <@sandy> I'll put them on the meeting page first
 803 15:06 <@sandy> just to document where everything's coming from
 804 15:06 <@boyd> any votes for changing Tomboy to be 1.0 next stable release?   or Tomboy 2.22?  or do we want to stick with 0.10 ?
 805 15:07 <@sandy> I don't think 2.22 makes much sense at this point
 806 15:07 < Jc2k> i vote for sticking to 0.10
 807 15:07 <@sandy> only because we're not hugely integrated into gnome
 808 15:07 <@sandy> we can run on older gnome, etc
 809 15:08 <@boyd> sandy: I think you added this to the wiki.  any thoughts/recommendations?
 810 15:08 <@sandy> no, not really
 811 15:08 <@sandy> I did add it
 812 15:08 <@sandy> I was just wondering if anyone had ideas of what would make Tomboy "1.0"
 813 15:09 <@sandy> is there a feature-complete Tomboy?
 814 15:09 <@boyd> ...or does it ever need to hit 1.0?
 815 15:09 <@sandy> are we less than 1.0 because we're not reallys table?
 816 15:09 <@sandy> users think that
 817 15:09 <@sandy> about software
 818 15:09 <@sandy> < 1.0 -> not ready yet
 819 15:09 <@boyd> if there's a perception problem, I don't mind moving to 1.0
 820 15:09 < orph> what's the point of a 1.0 if it's already on most desktops? :-)
 821 15:09 <@boyd> yeah, but if it's already there, I don't see a big need
 822 15:10 <@sandy> yup
 823 15:10 <@sandy> it's almost pointless
 824 15:10 <@sandy> whatever the version number
 825 15:10 <@boyd> although, if we did the move now, then this question wouldn't come up in the future ;)
 826 15:10 <@sandy> so sticking with 0.10.0 probably makes the most sense
 827 15:10 < maxasdf> Still see a lot of changes like the todos comming in. Last release did feel < 1.0 to me.
 828 15:10 <@boyd> it could be exciting to see Tomboy 1.0  !  ;)
 829 15:10 <@sandy> party time?
 830 15:11 < orph> excellent!
 831 15:11 <@sandy> okay, and Boyd, I agree with your coding guidelines suggestion
 832 15:11 <@sandy> we just need to change our MD settings
 833 15:11 <@boyd> k, whatever needs to be done!
 834 15:11 <@boyd> THANKS EVERYONE!
 835 15:12 <@sandy> oh noes, meeting over already?
 836 15:12 <@sandy> :-P:
 837 15:12  * sandy regards weird typo...licking eyballs or something?
 838 15:12 <@boyd> thanks sandy for keeping the log and recording action items ;)
 839 15:13 <@sandy> yeah, stuff might not be up on wiki until tonight
 840 15:13 <@boyd> no rush
 841 15:13 <@sandy> since we ran late
 842 15:13 <@boyd> when you're done ... just post something to the lists
 843 15:13 <@sandy> yup
 844 15:13  * maxasdf goes to bed. It's past midnight here...
 845 15:13 < segphault> nobody objects if I write a short article for Ars about Tomboy plans, right?
 846 15:13 <@boyd> ...in case anyone cares, heh.
 847 15:13 <@boyd> segphault: cool :)
 848 15:13 <@sandy> the press! ahhh!
 849 15:13 <@sandy> segphault: will you wait until we update the roadmap?
 850 15:14 < segphault> sure, I can do that
 851 15:14 <@boyd> http://live.gnome.org/Tomboy/RoadMap
 852 15:14 <@sandy> ha, I thought you'd updated it or something
 853 15:14 <@sandy> I do like my workload on the current 0.10.0 roadmap
 854 15:15 <@boyd> we still need to fix up the 0.8 roadmap
 855 15:15 <@sandy> true
 856 15:18 -!- cps [~chris@ppp121-44-81-219.lns10.syd6.internode.on.net] has joined #tomboy
 857 15:20 -!- boyd changed the topic of #tomboy to: Tomboy Notes | http://www.gnome.org/projects/tomboy | http://live.gnome.org/Tomboy/RoadMap | Latest release is 0.8.0
 858 15:20 -!- maxasdf [~max@85.183.210.150] has left #tomboy []
 859 15:22 <@sandy> I put the action items up in a rough form
 860 15:23 <@sandy> I'll clean it up, put up the log, and prepare the roadmap this evening
 861 15:23 <@sandy> then I'll email the list
 862 15:23 <@boyd> sandy: awesome, thanks!
 863 15:23 <@sandy> segphault: do you subscribe to tomboy-list?
 864 15:23 <@sandy> I guess I should blog it, too
 865 15:23 <@sandy> for p.g.o
 866 15:23 < segphault> no, I don't subscribe to tomboy-list
 867 15:23 <@boyd> sandy: good idea
 868 15:23 < segphault> if you could cc the message to segphault@arstechnica.com, I'd really appreciate it
 869 15:23 <@sandy> shouldn't be a problem
 870 15:23 < segphault> thanks! :-)
 871 15:24 <@sandy> alright, I'm gonna go
 872 15:24 <@sandy> thanks boyd for organizing this