Attachment '20091020.txt'
Download 1 < desrt> greetings friends and loved ones
2 < mclasen> excellent, a new talk show host
3 < bilboed> all rise for the honorable...
4 < mclasen> so, do we have an agenda ?
5 < bratsche> http://live.gnome.org/GTK%2B/Meetings
6 < desrt> mclasen: i think that's what priests say before weddings :)
7 < bratsche> I'm probably not going to stick around long today, but I wanted to ask about schedules for post-2.20
8 < bratsche> As in, what's next? Is there a 2.22 or will it go directly to 3.0? And either way, if there is any idea what the timetable is.
9 < mitch> or before funerals?
10 < mclasen> ok, lets do that first, then
11 < bratsche> Just for the purpose of scheduling things with my manager at work.
12 < desrt> mitch: i hope not :)
13 < mclasen> I think we should aim for 3.0 next, provided the sealing business is in good shape in 2.20
14 < mitch> which reminds me i need to add about 10 sealings
15 < mitch> so gimp builds
16 < mclasen> but thats just my opinion, I don't foresee having a ton of time to push things that way...
17 < danni_> there are still a bunch of outstanding feature branches (resolution-indep., extended layout) are we going to wait until 3.0 to push these?
18 < mclasen> I think thats on the agenda as the next point...
19 < ebassi> at some point we'll have to stop cramming stuff in 2.x :-)
20 < Company> there's also a lot of features people would like to get rid of, refactor etc
21 < danni_> mclasen: so it is!
22 < bratsche> Yeah.
23 < mitch> we should compile a list to *remove* fo 3.0 rather than to add
24 < bratsche> Is there any rough idea of how many months after 2.20 before we want 3.0 to be released?
25 < danni_> Company: yeah
26 < bratsche> Or is that going to be depending on Gnome 3.0's release schedule?
27 < danni_> Company: yeah
28 < bratsche> Or is that going to be depending on Gnome 3.0's release schedule?
29 < mclasen> mitch: a good idea, but most things to be removed in 3.0 ought to be deprecated in 2.20, I think
30 < mitch> mclasen: some things cannot be deprecated, like signals
31 < mitch> but generally, yes
32 < mclasen> mitch: they can always be documented as deprecated
33 < danni_> ooher, can we invent a way to deprecate set-scroll-adjustments ?
34 < mitch> right
35 < mclasen> you may not be able to make the build break if they are used...
36 < mitch> but we could warn
37 < mitch> don't signals have flags?
38 < mclasen> danni_: someone had a patch for a scrollable interface in bugzilla at some point
39 < mclasen> was that you ?
40 < danni_> mitch: python style, yeah
41 < danni_> mclasen: that was not me
42 < jpetersen> i have a patch to add a GtkScrollable interface
43 < mitch> like GtkContainer::add ::remove (the signals, not the vfuncs)
44 < kalikiana> we have a diagnostic mode in the plan to take care of signal and prop deprecations :)
45 < kalikiana> ^^ mitch
46 < jpetersen> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=468689
47 < mitch> mclasen: we also have a list of things that need to go into gobject for 2.20 to happen
48 < danni_> but a Python style g_warning in some Deprecation domain, could be useful here
49 < mitch> like class private data
50 < mitch> deprecation flags for signals
51 < mclasen> kalikiana: is that mode something thats going to be ready for 2.20 ?
52 < kris> mitch: and all the performance stuff is on that list as well ...
53 < mitch> kris: yeah
54 < kalikiana> mclasen, not sure, so far it's mostly planning, hardly code
55 < kalikiana> would you think that's preferrable?
56 < mitch> deep derivability of fundamental types
57 < mclasen> kalikiana: better late than never, but if the diagnostic mode is supposed to be useful in preparation for porting things to 3.0, it better show up in a 2.x release, no ?
58 < mitch> yes
59 < mclasen> so, it sounds like we would be better off making a list of things that need to happen for 2.20
60 < kalikiana> yes of course. Just asking if we should try to get it in 2.20 as opposed to 2.22
61 < kris> the main issue with the "diagnostic mode" is that there is nothing concrete ...
62 < Company> somewhat related question: how would we handle switching GdkPixbuf from RGBA to CAIRO_FORMAT_ARGB32?
63 < Company> assuming I wanted to write a patch for that
64 < kris> Company: doesn't that break the publicly exposed pixels pointer?
65 < mitch> Company: that's hardly possible i think :/
66 < danni_> could it be added as another colourspace ?
67 < Company> kris: yes it does
68 < mitch> for the reason kris gave
69 < jjardon> mclasen, I think you can use http://live.gnome.org/JavierJardon/GTKRoadmap for that list (move the page to other place if you want)
70 < ebassi> another colorspace would be interesting
71 < mclasen> danni_: thats 'formally api compat', but hardly in practical terms
72 < kalikiana> so the current one would have to be deprecated
73 < kalikiana> not impossible, just ugly
74 < mclasen> because nobody ever checks colorspaces
75 < danni_> mclasen: well, you'd make it so that people had to explicitly request that colourspace
76 < kris> you can add another colorspace, but you cannot set the other colorspace as default
77 < mclasen> jjardon: I was actually less interested in writing that list myself...
78 < danni_> mclasen: rather than make it the default
79 < danni_> but mention it in the docs
80 < Company> i think something like that would only be doable for 3.0, which is why i'm asking
81 < danni_> it would make a lot of people's lives easier
82 < danni_> even if it wasn't the default
83 < mclasen> yeah, adding a non-default cairo colorspace might be doable for 3.0
84 < Company> if the consensus is that it's not possible/shouldn't be done, then i'll look at a complete replacement more
85 < danni_> on this note, I've been trying to think how to have a gtktreemodel API that uses quarks
86 < danni_> so we can have named columns
87 < danni_> but I think this would have to break API
88 < Company> danni_: treemodel api should be broken anyway
89 < Company> danni_: because get_value is so slow
90 < desrt> *ahem* libmodel
91 < Company> desrt: do you have a treeview widget for it already? :)
92 < desrt> listview only
93 < desrt> treeview in development
94 < desrt> but targetting clutter, not gtk :)
95 < Company> cool
96 < Company> not that cool then
97 < desrt> gave a quick demo in boston
98 < ebassi> desrt: cool :-)
99 < danni_> desrt: do you use quarks for columns?
100 < desrt> not sure if anyone who was there is here... except maybe ebassi?
101 < desrt> danni_: no. strings.
102 < ebassi> desrt: I either missed it or was completely asleep
103 < desrt> danni_: and they're not columns
104 * mclasen missed it too
105 < desrt> mclasen: it was on the last day :(
106 < danni_> desrt: strings are fine too, I suppose
107 * danni_ wishes she could have been in Boston
108 < desrt> mind if i talk about it briefly?
109 < ebassi> desrt: I think the meeting is going to take some time
110 < desrt> i'm ok with waiting until next time then
111 < kris> i dont see how quarks solve anything
112 < Company> did i mention i'd like to see GQuark deprecated and replaced by interend strings?
113 < desrt> Company: that's an exceptionally reasonable proposal
114 < kris> Company: I think breaking get_value() like that is on the same line as suddenly changing the pixel format of GdkPixbuf
115 < danni_> kris: really it's the named columns I want
116 < kris> Company: I don't think we have envisioned such breakage initially, we have always promised a smooth migration
117 < danni_> kris: however they're looked up is an implementation detail for me
118 < Company> kris: yeah
119 < mclasen> Company: quarks give you interned strings today
120 < mclasen> or do I miss something ?
121 < kris> danni_: ah, named columns instead of numbers?
122 < desrt> mclasen: but they also give you a new namespace
123 < Company> mclasen: yes, it's just the ugly API
124 < danni_> kris: right
125 < kris> danni_: aah right
126 < danni_> kris: because numbers suck in GtkBuilder
127 < danni_> and in the bindings
128 < mclasen> Company: you can just ignore the quark api and use g_intern_string ?
129 < kris> danni_: in C code as well, unless you create an enum
130 < danni_> kris: yeah
131 < Company> mclasen: yeah, that's what everyone should do
132 < desrt> danni_: https://desrt.ca/gitweb/?p=model;a=blob;f=model/model.vala;h=e30d580c5a111e9170a8186a15e0d89f061fdea7;hb=HEAD
133 < Company> mclasen: and then you deprecate the quarks api so you can get rid of loads of public API \o/
134 < bilboed> Company, by which you mean you wouldn't have to explicetely create the quark, but just have some kind of decorator ?
135 < mclasen> Company: ok, I can buy that; except for cases where you really want to have an int as a identifier
136 < danni_> kris: basically I've always felt that named columns would fix so much up
137 < ebassi> can I ask to get things under a little bit more of control?
138 < desrt> danni_: references, lists, dictionaries. i'll bring it up at the next gtk meeting.
139 < kalikiana> Company, quarks are glib, won't help to deprecate them :-/
140 < Company> mclasen: where would that be?
141 < Company> kalikiana: not yet ;)
142 < mclasen> Company: dunno, you brought this topic up, so I am not prepared...
143 < Company> bilboed: you use g_intern_string() which gives you a unique gchar *
144 < Company> mclasen: ok, then i'll just assume there's no such case for now :)
145 < kris> maybe we can move all the new topics to the next meeting?
146 < kris> since I thin kthe list for this meeting was already long
147 < desrt> kris: a fine idea!
148 < mclasen> ebassi is right, we should get some order here
149 < mitch> yea we don't discuss the agenda here :)
150 < ebassi> I doubt an IRC meeting is going to solve the "future stuff" agenda point
151 < bilboed> kris, agreed
152 < Company> mclasen: you can use GPONTER_TO_SIZE() on the interened string if you want a number anyway
153 < kris> not that I don't want to discuss it :)
154 < mclasen> so, the question bratsche wanted answered ( and he needs to go soon)
155 < ebassi> so, can I ask everyone that has a proposal to send it to the mailing list and/or open a page under bugzilla (bug references are welcome)?
156 < mclasen> was when we target the release after 2.20
157 < ebassi> mclasen: thanks :-)
158 < ebassi> mclasen: I think it depends on when the release-team decides to spin GNOME 3.0 at this point
159 < ebassi> if GNOME 3.0 is going to depend on gtk+ 3.0
160 < mclasen> yeah, thats the one thing
161 < mitch> they said they don't need to
162 < kris> we need to have a plan at least
163 < jjardon> From Gnome people Feb 22: http://live.gnome.org/TwoPointTwentynine
164 < mitch> and would be willing to break abi in 3.2
165 < kris> if they "like" the plan, they might base gnome 3.0 on gtk+ 2.current and have gtk+ 3.0 for gnome 3.2
166 < mclasen> the other is what amount of feature branches we decide to pull in after 2.20
167 < danw> from talk in boston it sounded like people are expecting this spring to be GNOME 2.30, not 3.0
168 < desrt> mclasen: on that point, i'd like to have the floor for a few moments after this conversation :)
169 < desrt> danw: that's officially not decided yet
170 < kalikiana> ^^ why not keep "follow up" topics for after the official agenda, and see who can stay longer :)
171 < kalikiana> otherwise we keep disrupting the topic
172 < danw> desrt: no, but we probably shouldn't *assume* 3.0 will happen this spring
173 < mclasen> so, it looks like we will have a hard time making a solid plan here; from what I can see, our best bet is to ensure that we land all the '3.0-readiness
174 < desrt> danw: actually, i argue that's exactly what we *should* assume :)
175 < mclasen> ' things in 2.20
176 < kalikiana> I'd think if we are prepared, it's good. And if we're prepared but GNOME 3.0 isn't happening, no problem
177 < mitch> leaving out the possibility of not being prepared? :)
178 < ebassi> mclasen: agree
179 < kalikiana> mitch, I think the timeframe is doable, if we don't insist on getting everything, milk and ponies into 2.9 ;)
180 < mclasen> and to make sure we have all the 3.0 readiness items covered, we should collect them on the wiki page that jjardon has volunteered
181 < mitch> yes please
182 < mitch> like, we still have no plan on how to seal class structures
183 < desrt> jjardon: can you move that page to some semi-official place before we all try to edit it? :)
184 < kalikiana> mitch, question: who can take charge of class privates?
185 < ebassi> jjardon: under GTK+/Roadmap
186 < jjardon> ok
187 < kalikiana> maybe it would help to get that a bit going
188 < mitch> kalikiana: timj
189 < kalikiana> mitch, Let me reword: is timj available right now, to do that?
190 < kris> again, on the class private patch
191 < mitch> it's not a big change
192 < kris> I have "pre-reviewed" it
193 < kris> it makes fully sense
194 < kris> together with the reporter I found another bug that has been fixed
195 < mitch> yes it does, i looked at it too
196 < kalikiana> Maybe it's not big, I'm just saying it would be good to get it done sooner than later
197 < kris> it can't be more than 30 mins work for a gobject maintainer to accept it
198 < Company> then just commit it
199 < Company> there is no gobject maintainer right now :o
200 < bilboed> where is that branch located ?
201 < jjardon> done: http://live.gnome.org/GTK+/GTKRoadmap
202 < Company> bilboed: it's a patch in bugzilla i believe
203 < mclasen> kris: I'd tend to agree with Company here. Commit it, and invite timj to review it in-tree
204 * kalikiana thinks Company forgot his pink glasses today :P
205 < mitch> mclasen: which brings up the agenda point of glib branching?
206 < Company> kalikiana: no, i'm just fed up with everyone blocking on timj
207 * bilboed seconds Company's point-of-view
208 < ebassi> kalikiana: if two people like kris and mitch reviewed it, then I think we can commit it :-)
209 < Company> kalikiana: but i'll elaborate on that when we hit the gobject-performance agenda point
210 < mclasen> mitch: I did create a glib-2-22 branch, I believe
211 < kalikiana> The situation is annoying alright, but nobody other than Company seems to be eager to accept that :)
212 < mitch> cool
213 < mitch> back to agenda :)
214 < mitch> what is git surgery?
215 < kris> i have been wondering about that one as well
216 < mitch> fixing the 2.90 branch name?
217 < kalikiana> git surgery is cutting up an idiot I presume
218 < mclasen> volunteers ?
219 < bilboed> what needs to be done for that ?
220 < mitch> mclasen: you? ;)
221 < desrt> i'll do it if we agree
222 < desrt> you don't need surgery
223 < ebassi> mitch: 2.90 branch name and gtk-2.16
224 < desrt> just need to push an empty ref to the branch
225 < ebassi> or what jjardon added to the wiki :-)
226 < Company> git push origin :gtk-2.16
227 < Company> bye bye
228 < desrt> yup
229 < desrt> then just push thte 2.90 branch as 2-90 and do the same thing for 2.90
230 < desrt> the 'how' is less important than the 'why' and 'should'
231 < mclasen> ok, sounds like desrt has the necessary expertise to handle this comfortably
232 < kalikiana> ++
233 < mclasen> the why is easy: both were misnamed by accident
234 < mclasen> and the 2.16 branch is just an accident altogether
235 < mitch> let's do it
236 < desrt> ok. i'll do it
237 < ebassi> desrt: thanks :-)
238 < kalikiana> customer happy, neeeext point
239 < desrt> gvariant/gsettings/gdbus/etc, plz?
240 < ebassi> desrt: did you put those on the agenda? :-P
241 < bilboed> desrt, not on agenda
242 < desrt> no. but it's on jjardon's lovely list
243 < desrt> i suppose i have to wait until next week?
244 < ebassi> desrt: it can go in miscellaneous
245 < ebassi> if we cut some corners to save time :-)
246 < Company> desrt: it's a wiki page, edit it!
247 < desrt> i'm okay with deferring
248 < bilboed> Company, gaaaah, shaddap
249 < desrt> davidz and i are still hammering some small details down
250 < kalikiana> Company, editing during the meeting is cheating :P
251 < desrt> i'll make sure it's on the schedule for next week
252 < ebassi> I've seen garnacho's email on gtk-deve-list
253 < davidz> desrt: for the gdbus stuff we probably want alexl to review it - he's gone for the next week and a half (clone()/fork() in his family)
254 < kalikiana> (maybe we should consider a metting next instead of after next week, since we have many topics)
255 < desrt> i'm gonna skip out now. just one note:
256 < ebassi> for xi2
257 < davidz> desrt: (e.g. he had a son)
258 < desrt> when you're discussing the abstract application base class stuff, consider under the assumption that you'll be able to use DBus from GTK
259 < desrt> davidz: a boy? nice.
260 < kris> with all the dbus stuff i am still wondering how that will work for cross platform stuff
261 < mclasen> desrt: sure, unique-app + session-client is the two main gtk-level motivations for doing the dbus stuff in the first place
262 < kalikiana> hopefully not like gvfs, ie half done
263 < desrt> kris: i'll have an agenda item for next week
264 < Company> kris: i bet desrt will write a COM equivalent for windows
265 < kris> i think we should either fully support it, or not at all, but not half done
266 < danw> kris: the actually d-bussy APIs will depend on win32 dbus. the higher-level apis (unique app, session client) will not use dbus on win32
267 < kris> as i fully understand the motivation from a gtk+/gnome standpoint to have it, and I don't want to hold that back
268 < kris> danw: oh, interesting
269 * desrt out.
270 < davidz> libdbus-1 for win32 exists - it's just not in the mainline fd.o libdbus repo (it's a fork - fd.o dbus wants to merge it, it's not a lot of work but no-one qualified has stepped up... if we merge gdbus into glib someone should just step up and do the work)
271 < davidz> anyway, we can cover that next week
272 < davidz> everyone is aware of the problem and there's a way to solve it
273 < mclasen> so, back to the agenda item of 'interesting topic branches' ?
274 < jjardon> xi2 seems to be ready: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=596725
275 < mclasen> I have poked murrayc/tbf last week, and they made noises that sounded like they would get the extended layout work revived
276 < ebassi> as mitch pointed out on #gtk+, xi2 should be tested with gimp to check its readiness
277 < tbf> oink. oink.
278 < ebassi> if it hasn't already
279 < mclasen> without having looked at the branch at all, xi2 strikes me as the one topic that would be most interesting to get squeezed into 2.x still
280 < mitch> mclasen: agreed
281 < ebassi> yup
282 < mclasen> unfortunately, I am crazy short on time for GTK+ stuff in the near future
283 < mclasen> so, if we could muster some additional review power, that would be cool
284 < jjardon> RI branch seems to be ready too, I think only testing is needed: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=546711
285 < kalikiana> ^^ more review power would so rock
286 < bilboed> no excuses now with splinter
287 < ebassi> jjardon: davidz said in boston that some more testing with complex non-gtk apps like openoffice, eclipse and firefox should be in order for RI review
288 < danni_> I think it also needs a bit more forward porting
289 < danni_> from when I last worked on it
290 < kalikiana> mclasen being a machine and all that, but he deserves some relief
291 < danni_> it also needs some integration with settings
292 < danni_> since it doesn't have any atm
293 < davidz> yeah, there's a separate task of figuring out the gnome ui for configuring this
294 < davidz> and then ensure that the apis we want (in particular GtkSettings) work with that
295 < danni_> I've never really had inspiration for how it might be configured
296 < danni_> or how the settings should look
297 < davidz> right, we just need a high-level idea so we are sure that the api supports what we want
298 < danni_> mmm
299 < danni_> maybe we need to punt this to a designer ?
300 < danni_> get some ideas
301 < ebassi> danni_: yes
302 < davidz> danni_: yeah, something like that would be great
303 < ebassi> I can probably ask Nick Richards on my team
304 < mclasen> s/punt to/consult with/
305 < kalikiana> mclasen, maybe you could just write down a list of people you consider able, otherwise it could take years to sort that out
306 < danni_> ebassi: neat
307 < kalikiana> and just see who also has time
308 < ebassi> because if the configuration involves a ruler then I think we failed already :-)
309 < mclasen> kalikiana: I think I promised something like that last time, didn't i ?
310 < danni_> ebassi: yeah, I think we all agree there
311 < danni_> ebassi: tbh, I'm not sure that most people will want that much RI
312 < danni_> and certainly not multimonitor RI
313 < danni_> (although that's where the configuration nightmare starts)
314 < kalikiana> mclasen, I just remember it was supposed to be sorted out after the meeting, and so far nothing looks sorted =)
315 < davidz> so I think with RI it's like: 1. figure out high-level story for configuration; 2. review API changes (mostly GtkSize and GtkSettings multi-monitor changes) in the patch; 3. go through all of gtk+ and do s/12/GTK_SIZE_ONE_TWELFTH_EM(1.0)/ where appropriate
316 < davidz> (maybe find a shorter macro name too!) ;-)
317 < danni_> davidz: right
318 < ebassi> GTK_DEFAULT_SPACING :-)
319 < danni_> I did a lot of (3) when I was using the work
320 < davidz> then 4. test on lots of apps / desktop sessions; 5. merge it
321 < danni_> but still needed (1) and (2)
322 < davidz> right
323 < danni_> there were a few other things I'd been meaning to fix
324 < danni_> like the signal on GtkSettings.. seemed a little nutty
325 < danni_> possibly belonged on GdkScreen, etc.
326 < davidz> yeah
327 < davidz> anyway 3. and 4. can happen in parallel so ideally more than one person can work on them
328 < danni_> yeah
329 < davidz> but for 1. and 2. it's mostly a one-man job
330 < danni_> I had a script to track down 3 somewhere
331 < danni_> it had a list of API calls that take a size
332 < davidz> cool
333 < danni_> I wonder what I did with it
334 < danni_> (although I never delete anything, this doesn't mean those things are easy to find)
335 * mclasen peeks at the next topic
336 < mclasen> deprecations...
337 < mitch> please!
338 < mitch> these classes have bevome entirely useless
339 < mitch> and we can simply keep gtk_hbox_new() etc. as utility functions
340 < mitch> instead of gtk_box_new(GTK_ORIENTATION_FOO);
341 < mclasen> well, we still can't instantiate the flippable ones...
342 < mitch> i know
343 < mitch> i wanted to have them instantiatable
344 * mclasen too
345 < mitch> and i still didn't get what exactly we should change with default values
346 < mitch> apart from e.g. gtk box to pack shrinking by dwfault, not expanding
347 < ebassi> didn't the wiki page about that already listed the changes?
348 < ebassi> for the properties, I mean
349 < mclasen> so, should we reconsider that 'defaults block !absract
350 < mclasen> ' decision from long ago
351 < mclasen> ?
352 < mitch> we should go over the list again i think, but yes
353 < mitch> timj wanted to e.g. make these widgets visible by default
354 < mclasen> tangentially related: we should fix the orientation properties to have correct declared initial values
355 < mitch> but that's something that should be done for all widgets imho
356 < jjardon> davidz, I've created this, if it's useful :http://live.gnome.org/GTK%2B/RI
357 < mitch> mclasen: initial values?
358 < Company> mclasen, mitch: related to that, would a g_param_spec_copy_with_new_default (const GValue *default) make sense?
359 < Company> so that subclasses could override default values?
360 < mclasen> yeah, if you can figure out how to do it
361 < mclasen> the last time I looked at teaching the paramspecredirect to change defaults
362 < mclasen> I couldn't figure it out
363 < mitch> you mean *just* the default value?
364 < davidz> jjardon: cool, thanks
365 < mclasen> I guess if you just copy, then that'll work
366 < kalikiana> yes, without re-creating it entirely
367 < Company> mitch: yeah, so HBox and VBox can have a different default orientation
368 < mitch> yea
369 < mitch> Company: i'm rather for killing these classes
370 < danni_> mclasen: you could make it not a redirect
371 < Company> ya, it was just an example
372 * danni_ did something similar to that very recently
373 < Company> it's useful elsewhere
374 < danni_> it just proxied cmp, and validate
375 < mitch> problem is that they would also all have to become CONSTRUCT properties
376 < mitch> for overridden defaults i mean
377 < Company> mitch: you'd have to do that in instance_init, too
378 < Company> for non-construct ones
379 < mitch> Company: not if they are construct
380 < mitch> yea
381 < mclasen> we already do it in instance_init, no ?
382 < Company> mclasen: yes
383 < mitch> that's error prone ;)
384 < Company> mclasen: but it confuses apps like glade
385 < mclasen> I know, thats why I want the declared default fixed
386 < mitch> aaah
387 < Company> i suggested to tristan that he should write a test that instantiates all widgets and compares their property values with the defaults
388 < Company> just to see how many cases we have where they don't match
389 < mclasen> Company: like gtk/tests/defaultvalue.c ?
390 < Company> don't think he ever did
391 < mitch> Company: such a test is already there
392 < Company> oh :)
393 < mclasen> Company: that one blacklists all the properties where its broken...
394 < mitch> heh
395 * Company HAS A LOOK
396 < mclasen> well, in some cases its unfixable, like object-valued properties
397 < Company> /cas-lock
398 < jjardon> For the record, this is the code of GtkHBoxButton after remove deprecated code: http://git.gnome.org/cgit/gtk+/tree/gtk/gtkhbbox.c?h=gtk-2.90
399 < mitch> fixing that for next stable is also a good goal
400 < kalikiana> Company, so you like unit tests but never looked at gtk's tests? tsts ;)
401 < mitch> jjardon: looks like hbox, hruler, hscale etc ;)
402 < Company> kalikiana: that's mostly becaue they're not taken serious enough
403 < kalikiana> I guess they are just too chaotic
404 < jjardon> mitch, yeah: see GtkVBoxButton: http://git.gnome.org/cgit/gtk+/tree/gtk/gtkvbbox.c?h=gtk-2.90
405 < Company> kalikiana: and not run often enough
406 < mclasen> mitch: so, clearly, before we can even talk about deprecating h/v variants, we have to solve the abstractness issue
407 < Company> kalikiana: and you're not shamed publically if you break them
408 < kalikiana> Company, yeah, we need a bot to IRC and email breakes
409 < kalikiana> that would be cool
410 < mitch> mclasen: all classes i hacked up just work totally fine when you remove ABSTRACT
411 < mclasen> the thing is, they don't break that often
412 < mclasen> ...lack of coverage...
413 < mclasen> mitch: no doubt
414 < bilboed> did I hear buildslaves ?
415 < mclasen> the holdup here is entirely about default values
416 < mitch> yea...
417 < mclasen> but we cannot really change the defaults in 2.x. Or can we ?
418 < mitch> mclasen: only if somebody instantiates a gtkbox directly,
419 < mitch> mclasen: i'm just not totally sure about the how
420 < mclasen> well, then you gotta give all derived classes the old default back
421 < mclasen> how are you going to do that for out-of-tree stuff ?
422 < mitch> void
423 < mitch> _gtk_box_set_old_defaults (GtkBox *box)
424 < mitch> {
425 < mitch> GtkBoxPrivate *private;
426 < mitch> g_return_if_fail (GTK_IS_BOX (box));
427 < mitch> private = GTK_BOX_GET_PRIVATE (box);
428 < mitch> private->default_expand = TRUE;
429 < mitch> }
430 < mitch> that's how we do it now, as an example
431 < mitch> um, good point
432 < mitch> maybe we should simply got for GTK_IS_VBOX() || GTK_IS_HBOX() here
433 < mitch> ugly but works
434 < mitch> and will go away as soon as we remove te deprecated hbox and vboxed
435 < mitch> vboxes*
436 < kalikiana> mclasen, wouldn't out-of-tree classes inherit the subclasses defaults?
437 < kalikiana> if we fix them that is
438 < mitch> yes, right actually
439 < mclasen> kalikiana: if we change the default for boxes to visible= true, we can fix hbox/vbox to be !visible still
440 < mitch> as long as they derive from the old subclasses they inherit their hacks too
441 < mclasen> but some gimpbox thats directly derived from gtkbox is going to be visible by default, then
442 < kalikiana> does it actually inheit gtkbox?
443 < kalikiana> is that allowed yet?
444 < mitch> mclasen: and it will know that, because it derives from gtkbox!
445 < kalikiana> s/allowed/allowed by gobject
446 < mitch> kalikiana: deriving is allowed of course
447 < kalikiana> Hm.. ok. Wasn't sure if it was protected somehow
448 < Company> kalikiana: yes
449 < jjardon> Related bug about properties: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=587256
450 < mclasen> one can perhaps play horrible games to figure out at construct time whether its a box or a subclass...
451 < mclasen> ...but the pain involved is certainly considerable...
452 < mitch> you can do that in init()
453 < mclasen> the thing is, you need to do it in a box function, not in a function of the derived class
454 < mitch> it's a simple == but you can't use the type definition macros any longer :(
455 < jjardon> (that bugs makes glade unusable for some people)
456 < mclasen> we probably need a worked out example of that...
457 * mclasen looks at the rest of the deprecation list
458 < mclasen> those look easier...
459 < mitch> what list?
460 < mclasen> notebook tab packing, gtkcurve, multihead
461 < mitch> oh, yea, the usual stuff :)
462 < mclasen> so, I don't think we need to discuss gtkcurve really
463 < mitch> die die die
464 < ebassi> and the tab packing on Notebook either
465 < ebassi> evilness
466 < Company> but i want my help tab on the right!
467 < mclasen> looking at gtkcurve, theres some more in the too-specialized departement
468 < mclasen> gtkruler and its ilk
469 < mitch> ruler is used in many apps though
470 < ebassi> Company: :-P
471 < mclasen> mitch: oh, in that case, we should move it out of the 'too-specialized' section in the docs
472 < mitch> mclasen: well actually gimp has gimpruler now, so... ;)
473 < ebassi> if I had to implement a ruler nowadays I'd probably reach for cairo and DrawingArea
474 < mclasen> mitch: cool ruler features you are holding back ?!
475 < Company> did anyone review all the APIs we have for "too specialized"?
476 < mitch> haha :)
477 < Company> stuff like GtkLabel::pattern?
478 < mitch> mclasen: but yes indeed ;)
479 < mitch> Company: wtf is that?
480 < kalikiana> Company, I doubt so. It would be a good idea, though
481 < mclasen> Company: nobody did, as far as I know
482 < ebassi> mitch: underscore a label's contents using a pattern
483 < mclasen> so, we have agreement to deprecate gtkcurve and notebook tab packing
484 < mclasen> what about !multihead-safe api
485 * mclasen is a bit torn on that
486 < mitch> please
487 < ebassi> mclasen: for that I kinda agree with your comment on the bug
488 < mitch> i know owen's argument of simplicity here, but it just sucks to have these legacy apis :/
489 < mitch> bug #?
490 < mclasen> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=547920
491 * mclasen rereads his own comment
492 < ebassi> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=547920#c24
493 < desrt> btw
494 < desrt> - [deleted] gtk-2.16
495 < desrt> * [new branch] gtk-2.90 -> gtk-2-90
496 < desrt> - [deleted] gtk-2.90
497 < desrt> bye :)
498 < mclasen> thanks, desrt
499 < mitch> mclasen: how it multihead dying?
500 < mitch> i'm not totally up-to-date on that front
501 < mclasen> mitch: you don't have multiple screens anymore
502 < mitch> is*
503 < mclasen> you have a single screen, with multiple monitors
504 < mitch> oh heh
505 < mclasen> since nobody does the b/w + color monitor workstation setup from the 80ies anymore
506 < bilboed> and even so it would be handled at the X level
507 < kalikiana> what about remote?
508 < danni_> remote is a separate Display, rather than a separate Screen
509 < mitch> does any app apart from emacs and gimp support opening another display?
510 < mitch> danni_: so it is a separate screen too
511 < danni_> mitch: ok, valid
512 < kalikiana> danni_, I just mean sth like running an app over ssh so it has a different gtk-settings :)
513 < danni_> mitch: I guess though, since you're connected to a new Display, you'll get the default Screen for that Display
514 < mclasen> so, I kinda see the point that this is a nice amount of api to get rid off
515 < mclasen> do we know if gtk builds with multihead-safe turned on ?
516 < danni_> can you hold connections to two separate Displays in X? I guess you could... I've never tried
517 < Company> danni_: gstreamer-cairo holds roughly 50
518 < mitch> danni_: you can, try that sick hack in gimp ;)
519 < Company> danni_: so the stuff can pass thread boundaries (it's X Displays, not gdk displays though)
520 * kalikiana ponders saving that gimp quote as a universal excuse for new api
521 < mitch> heh
522 < Company> next item?
523 < kalikiana> eeeeebassi
524 < Company> hilight fail
525 < Company> ebassi: next item!
526 < mclasen> night item is 290 branch for glib
527 < mitch> freudian slip?
528 < mitch> i'm tired at least ;)
529 < kalikiana> freudian gstring
530 < ebassi> heh
531 < mclasen> nah, I just omitted the .
532 < mclasen> so, do we need one ? if so, what for ?
533 < bilboed> ebassi, what would that entail ?
534 < ebassi> bilboed: I do not know -- jjardon added it :-)
535 < kalikiana> as far as I realize glib 2.9 was voted down quite loudly
536 < kalikiana> since it's not worth it
537 < ebassi> I guess it revolves around the "what do we do with glib" question
538 < mitch> we don't have much to do there apart from remove deprecated stuff
539 < mitch> not worth a 3.0, or?
540 < ebassi> kalikiana: pretty much, though people have been asking for all sorts of crazy stuff to land in the next 3 months without testing and review ;-)
541 < bilboed> crazy as in additions ? or crazy as in fixing tons of little stuff nobody's ready to review ?
542 < ebassi> crazy as in additions
543 < kalikiana> ebassi, crazy but painful is better than pain without gain :P
544 < Company> desrt and davidz is a recipe for crazy
545 < Company> and i mean that as a compliment
546 < kalikiana> or typos
547 < ebassi> like the usual
548 < ebassi> ""collection API"
549 < ebassi> request
550 < Company> ...
551 < mitch> treemodel into glib!!1!1!!
552 < Company> is anyone using libgee outside of vala?
553 < ebassi> doubt it
554 < kalikiana> gee, nobody does
555 < mitch> are we idling?
556 < bilboed> ebassi, seems like a moo point
557 < ebassi> yep
558 < bilboed> ebassi, if stuff is reviewed... why put it in another branch ?
559 < mitch> gobject-performance?
560 < mitch> ok we're back on the last point :)
561 < bilboed> just waiting for ebassi to close the previous topic :)
562 < ebassi> as for the "application class" point, I'd say we wait until the D-Bus stuff lands :-)
563 < mclasen> yeah, that should wait until then
564 < Company> i'd like to have a schedule for gobject-performance
565 < ebassi> bilboed: nothing much to close :-)
566 < Company> because i'm kinda afraid noone will be looking at it and then it's too late to land
567 < bilboed> right
568 < Company> and then the gstreamer guys will keep ranting about glib maintainers being idiots
569 < bilboed> which maintainers ? :)
570 < Company> and then it'll all be my fault again
571 < mclasen> Company: you live in the same town, no ? you could just casually 'meet' timj somewhere...
572 < Company> mclasen: he's big and scary
573 < mitch> yea bring some chains to bind him to the table
574 < mclasen> but you have performance-enhancing branches
575 * bilboed was worried this topic would go haywire
576 < bilboed> mclasen, yes, gobject-performance on glib, and some others on fdo
577 < bilboed> mclasen, the point is ... merging them
578 < kalikiana> "some others" sounds like it must be very well organized
579 < mclasen> Company: so, I would love to get serious about the gobject-performance stuff when alex comes back in a few weeks
580 < Company> i'd just like to avoid everyone blocking on timj
581 < Company> just like with class data
582 < bilboed> kalikiana, you'd prefer me to pollute git.g.o with 500 branches ?
583 < mclasen> and at that point, I'll try to reroute review around timj and get stuff unblocked
584 < kalikiana> bilboed, Hm.. you realize you don't *have* to branch only because it's git :P
585 < mclasen> does that sound fair ?
586 < bilboed> kalikiana, agreed, I should just commit to master
587 < Company> mclasen: yeah
588 < mclasen> ok, cool
589 < mitch> mclasen: it sounds like something nobody can object against
590 < Company> mclasen: as long as it makes next stable glib, i'm happy :)
591 < bilboed> same here
592 < mclasen> almost at the 2 hour mark, should we defer remaining issues until ...when ?
593 < mclasen> next week ?
594 < mitch> yes please
595 < Company> aren't we done?
596 < mclasen> there's misc, and I would have brought up some tooltips revamp I'm doing right now
597 < mitch> there is misc on the agenda :P
598 < mclasen> but I'll table that for today
599 < mitch> mclasen: yet another revamp?
600 < ebassi> so next meeting in two weeks?
601 < ebassi> November 3rd
602 < ebassi> ?
603 < mclasen> mitch: just a facelift
604 < mitch> next week?
605 < mclasen> rounded corners, that kind of stuff
606 < mitch> mclasen: neat :)
607 < mclasen> and maybe better positioning
608 < Company> ebassi: didn't someone suggest next week?
609 < ebassi> or next week
610 * Company doesn't mind
611 < bilboed> fine by me
612 < mclasen> there was some motion to meet earlier, because we have stuff on the agenda
613 < ebassi> either is fine by me - I just need the date for the wiki (and for the reminder)
614 < mitch> since we don't have infinite time i'd say next week
615 < mclasen> so make it next week, then
616 < ebassi> okay, next week, October 27th
617 < ebassi> thanks everyone
618 < bilboed> thx
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