Attachment 'GNOME-20111026.log'

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<shaunm> All right, I think we can get started
 The details for the meeting are here: http://live.gnome.org/FoundationBoard/MeetingAgenda
 And as a reminder, if you'd like to talk about something, just add it here: http://live.gnome.org/action/login/FoundationBoard/MembersAgenda
<aday> thanks shaunm
<shaunm> The first item on the agenda is about the Desktop Summit. There's been discussion about whether we should do another Desktop Summit, how frequent it should be, how the format could be improved, etc.
 There are strong feelings on all sides of the issue. It does seem like the majority favor doing a DS every two years, but there are a lot of people who would prefer not to.
<mccann> how did you determine that?
<shaunm> So we'd like to just get community input
 mccann: I analyzed the results of the DS survey.
<desrt> mccann: there was an official survey of desktop summit attendees
<mccann> oh hmm was there one this year too?
<desrt> of those that identified themselves as affiliated with gnome, 2/3 said that they want one again in 2 years
<karenesq> mccann: shaunm filtered through the DS survey responses for folks that identified in the survey with GNOME
<mccann> interesting
 do you think they were all informed about the pluses and minuses?
 was that included in the survey?
 i don't remember the survey at all actually
<shaunm> The survey didn't try to present arguments at all, no.
<andre> assuming that survey participants were present at DS, they should have experienced the pluses and minuses themselves and should be able to judge.
<mccann> not necessarily
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<mccann> some aren't readily apparent
 is the desktop summit exclusive to gnome and kde?
<aday> shaunm, out of interest, did you factor in how many guadecs they'd been to?
<aday> for the comparison...
<shaunm> aday: no
<karenesq> the full survey report (not filtered for GNOME responses) is here: http://ur1.ca/5ihko
<shaunm> I don't think that was on the survey.
* shaunm double-checks
<aday> it would be a shame if it wasn't
 it has relevance if they'd only been to one guadec
<ebassi> I don't think I've seen that
<mccann> or if the summit was their first
<shaunm> yeah, not on the survey
<mccann> yeah
 that's a pretty big factor
<desrt> i'm not sure, but i think that most people attending are regulars
<mccann> speculation :)
<shaunm> you do get a substantial turnout from current SoC students and such
<ebassi> desrt: that's what I thought; but I also tend to hang out with the regulars
<desrt> i feel comfortable when speculating about these things in the presence of twice as many people voting for "let's do desktop summit again" than all the other options put together :)
<ebassi> desrt: so there's a selection in place
<mccann> speculation has no place in survey analysis
 if you intend to use it for decision making
<desrt> okay.  then i fall back on the overwhelming stats
<mccann> i'm interested in the scope of the conference...
<desrt> that's something that i've been discussing lately
<mccann> is android a desktop?
<desrt> some people are wondering if maybe unity doesn't belong at desktop summit
 i personally think that's not appropriate
<mccann> is meego or whatever it is called invited?
<desrt> you only have to look at what happens in the off years to understand that desktop summit is really meant to be guadec+akademy
 not a universal freedesktop.org lovefest
<mccann> then what is the point exactly?
 if not os collaboration
<desrt> hang out with cool kde hackers?
<mccann> that's not a good goal in light of the negatives of losing our focus
<gpoo> there was a survey after the first desktop summit, and the results were more or less the same.
<mccann> unity is much more interesting than kde 
 for example
<shaunm> So for people opposed to doing another DS, we'd really like to get the reasons.
<mccann> i'd be happy to give mine
<shaunm> please do
<mccann> first and foremost it is an opportunity to put our best foot forward to our users and developers
 for the gnome brand
 it is an important opportunity to meet and plan for gnome
 and talk about shared goals
 it is the only chance we get pretty much
 we don't share goals with kde
 and we collaborate with far more than just kde
 there are better places for os platform collaboration
 plumbers and collab conferences for example
 when you don't share ux goals there is not much to discuss at that level
 and guadec is all about that level
 also the classic idea of desktop is dead
 so the framing is all wrong
<desrt> so one idea that has been tossed around is to keep desktop summit, but not in its current form
<mccann> not to mention I don't really see kde as being at all viable going forward
<desrt> as a scaled down focused conference for low-level hackers who will actually want to collaborate with the other side
 and not limited to just KDE and GNOME
<mccann> we're going to have a hard enough time keep ourselves viable and we should focus on that
<desrt> and then keep guadec and akademy separate
 i have to admit that i sort of like that idea
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<mccann> a collab summit at the expense of a focused conference for our users, third party developers, and hackers is a huge mistake
 one that signals irrelevance
 you have to know what you want to do *first* and then talk about collaboration
 and guadec is the chance to decide what we want to do
 and to communicate that to our ecosystem
<desrt> that's a valid point of view
 which is why we have the current compromise solution of only doing desktop summit every other year
 (it's good to keep in mind that every-other-year is already a compromise)
<mccann> if you want to do them in addition to guadec i don't care
 i mean i wouldn't go because what can I share?
 we don't share *goals*
<karenesq> what if guadec and akademy were separate and co-located with an overlapping portion for desktop summit?
<mccann> we at least share goals with unity and ubuntu
 some
<shaunm> what goals are those?
<mccann> both broad and narrow
<shaunm> (If anybody else has an opinion on this subject, please chime in.)
<mccann> kde is the least interesting collaboration summit I can imagine
<desrt> in terms of effective collaboration, i'm not sure that desktop summit is the best possible venue
<jjmarin> what about promoting hackfests in those areas where KDE, Unity and GNOME can collaborate  ?
<desrt> it allows for certain inpromptu collaboration to occur
<mccann> for example a harfbuzz hackfest is far more effective for thta
<desrt> but when i go there i'm not really thinking "i have a list of stuff to talk with KDE people about"
 i'm thinking "i get to hang out with gnome people"
 having a separate focused event for collaboration would be more useful, i hink
<aday> i feel that guadec is stronger from a marketing point of view
<shaunm> jjmarin: that's been brought up by a few people, and I think that's definitely something we want to pursue, regardless of the future of the Desktop Summit.
<mccann> and build, foster, and develop relationships that will lead to creating a great product and a good time
 aday: right. in brand and marketing terms guadec vs summit is a no brainer
<shaunm> who does guadec market to?
<mccann> users, app developers, and hackers/designers
 also ad board partners
<aday> shaunm, put it this way - i don't think many of the 14,000 gnome twitter followers understand what the desktop summit really is
<gpoo> aday: on the other hand, how many non-developers know what guadec is?
<shaunm> There's been some question as to whether GUADEC really is for users, despite the U in the name. That's why I ask.
<aday> gpoo, i think people understand if we say 'the gnome conference'
<shaunm> Also, some of the ad board partners do prefer the DS.
 (Although some don't)
<mccann> to the extent we want users to become involved it is really crucial
 existing ones
 not new ones
<shaunm> fair enough
<gpoo> aday: people either use ubuntu or fedora, unfortunately they do not use 'gnome'
<shaunm> ...yet :)
<aday> :)
<mccann> a hardware manufacturer from korea will be very confused by desktop summit
 "what is this for?" "who are you people?" "what are you doing?"
 if the answer is "totally different things" then we have failed
<gpoo> if the conference target is manufacturers, then ds is not the answer.
<mccann> not only failed our ecosystem but failed the folks that really want to bond as a group that shares goals
<gpoo> but I do not think we have targeted manufacters, just developers
<mccann> gpoo: what is ds the answer to?
 i'm a third party developer? is ds for me?
 what app guidelines should I use?
 what sdk? toolkit? dev help system?
<shaunm> (Administrative note: There's nothing on the MembersAgenda, but we do have an agenda item to discuss Friends of GNOME campaigns. I'm happy to let this topic go on for another ten minutes, but then we should move on.)
<gpoo> do people go to guadec trying to answer those questions?
 I do not think so.
<yippi> though, some of these issues you raise mccann seem more general.  we have not been so great at getting people like third party developers to attend GNOME events in general in the past.
<mccann> gpoo: what is ds for?
 past failures are no excuse for future ones
<gpoo> for trying to get collaboration between kde and gnome developers
 whatever it means
<mccann> gpoo: and have you tried to measure the effectiveness of that?
<yippi> being better about getting people like hardware vendors and ISV's to attend events is an issue regardless of whether we have a DS or not.
<mccann> what great collaborations came out of berlin?
<gpoo> it will depend to who you ask
<desrt> i've heard good stories from a small group of people
<gpoo> it can be said the same for both points of view, though
<mccann> my point stands that collaboration may be a fine goal but not at the expense of guadec
<jjmarin> maccan: we are collaborating with KDE people in a11y
<desrt> mccann: i'm not sure that enough people feel that GUADEC has been sacrificed
<karenesq> is DS really at the expense of guadec?
<gpoo> mccann: I agree with your last statement. But the other argument does not seem very strong
<mccann> yes
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<yippi> i think the main issue is that it seems that a majority of foundation members and advisory board members want a desktop summit.
<mccann> karenesq: it clearly is
<yippi> while a strong vocal minority do not.  that makes for a complicated situation
<mccann> i have yet to hear a single good reason for ds
 and there are tons of negatives
<karenesq> do we just need more GNOME only events?
<desrt> mccann: i've yet to hear a solid reason for not having DS because i'm not yet convinced that we are somehow losing GUADEC by doing it
<mccann> karenesq: yes but start with making sure there is at least one every single year
<desrt> if anything, i think the benefit of splitting out a separate collaboration-oriented desktop summit from guadec would be more of a benefit to collaboration than it would be to guadec itself
<mccann> the old tag line for guadec used to be "meet, plan, party" that sums it pretty well
<desrt> since (at least for me) desktop summit feels pretty much like guadec
 (with all of these other people walking around that i don't really talk to very much)
<yippi> i've yet to hear an issue about the desktop summit that couldn't be fixed by GNOME people being better involved.  We had many issues with the last DS because GNOME volunteers did not get involved to help with things.
<mccann> you can't focus on meeting planning and partying if you focus on collaboration with another os
<shaunm> We do have other GNOME events.
<karenesq> DS makes good press, and not having one is like taking our toys and going home
<desrt> mccann: that's my point.  there's not really a lot of collaboration going on, actually
 karenesq: that's very much true as well
<aday> karenesq, i think they're very different messages
<mccann> karenesq: how does it make good press?
 it is bad press
<zana> can't we make the DS an "other event" and keep GUADEC so that our flagship conference doesn't lose steam?
<mccann> the very idea that in a certain year gnome doesn't matter enough to have a conference to focus on planning is a terrible message
<desrt> zana: that's one possibility, indeed
<shaunm> zana: DS will be a much smaller event in that case
 not saying that's bad, just saying
<mccann> in doesn't make sense within gnome (for hackers and designers) and it doesn't make any sense as a signal to the ecosystem
 *it
<yippi> though, considering how the Boston Summit kind of flopped this year, it seems we are having trouble making gnome matter enough to focus on planning events
<desrt> yippi: :(
<mccann> and a collaboration summit should include more than kde to be interesting
<yippi> i didn't say the montreal summit flopped.  :)
<mccann> guadec is a showcase as well
<jjmarin> Another approach is making Boston Summit more prominet those years with DS and do more hackfests to get the GNOME people together. I say that because DS = GUADEC + Akademy. It is sort of strange if we have GUADEC and DS in the same year. Just thinking out loud 
<mccann> it is a chance to tell *our* story
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<shaunm> All right, we have about ten minutes left. We should move on.
 I think everybody's had their say.
<yippi> but we have been having trouble making gnome events happen, I think.  the fact that so few GNOME volunteers helped with the last desktop summit is just an example, like the fact that the boston summit didn't get organized as well as it should have
<karenesq> mccann: there's definitely some bad press in GNOME not wanting to have another DS, especially given the criticisms lately of GNOME
<karenesq> sorry shaunm
<shaunm> We haven't had a Friends of GNOME campaign in a while. There's been discussion about having an accessibility drive with FoG
 jjardon jjmarin
<jjmarin> A little background
<yippi> +1, they've been requesting one for years
<jjmarin>  we used to have 2 recurring annual campaigns in the past
 one more generic and another one with a more specific goal.
 the last specific campaign was for hiring a sysadmin in 2010
 So, yes, I think it is a good idea to start FoG campaigns again :-)
 There's a lot of work that needs to be done in accessibility for the
 GNOME Desktop and we think that a FoG a11y campaing will be of great help
 We have a lot of things to do in a11y. I think it makes sense to do a
 FoG a11y campaign and spend the money in contracts for doing a11y stuff
<mccann> karenesq: feel free to contact me out of band if you want to discuss it further
<gpoo> I think we need something more concrete.
<jjmarin> suggested by the a11y team under the supervision of the Foundation.
<gpoo> improving a11y is something that a lot of people would like, but what is the concrete outcome?
 besides 'better a11y support', which is not countable.
<aday> my understanding was that it would be for a specific a11y goal
<jjmarin> What I mean is not practical to define all these contracts before the
<karenesq> mccann: thanks!
<jjmarin> a11y campaign because is a long hard task and it is better to start the
 campaign ASAP
<shaunm> agreed. I like the drive in spirit, but I think it will be more successful if we can point to a very concrete thing the money will go to.
<karenesq> yes, I think a general push is good for FoG
<aday> jjmarin, so what are the next steps?
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<karenesq> because I think it's easy to promote, so long as we can report on specific things after
<yippi> would it be possible for people in the a11y team to get more involved with the marketing team to help with things like updating the website as needed to make FoG campaigns work?
<jjmarin> yippi: I could help on this
 we need to design the bar and define a amount of money for the campaign
<karenesq> yippi: the marketing team discussed this at their last meeting and seemed enthusiastic to push this campaign forward
<zana> is there a timeline?
<jjmarin> 1st step: write a good goal
 2) goal of money
<yippi> it would be good if some people on the a11y team could join the marketing list and get involved.
<aday> zana, good question :)
<yippi> to help make this happen
<jjmarin> yippi I'm in the a11y team and I'm here
<yippi> great, though i would encourage others as well to help
<jjmarin> The thing is: 
 the performance goal for example, needs a lot of work with the foundation to be finished
 and there are other goals
 for the FoG campaign
 it will take time to have all these goals 
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<jjmarin> approved by the foundation 
 to start a FoG campaign IMHO
<shaunm> that's a good point
<jjmarin> so, that because I think it is better a more general goal 
<shaunm> but perhaps we could have some semi-concrete things we *might* do with the money
 things that people can actually relate to
 which, you know, at the same time could raise awareness of real a11y issues
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<jjmarin> we can do a list of things we could improve with the FoG
<aday> jjmarin, i don't think we have to be too precise here
<jjmarin> I think this more practical than super defined contracts
<aday> our aims and achievements don't have to exactly match
<shaunm> no, but giving people some idea of the problems is good. I think most people have almost no idea of what a11y really means in practice
 what users needs, what goes in to solving those needs, etc
<aday> shaunm, yea, just meant that we can be somewhat loose with our list of aims
<shaunm> sure
 I've been convinced we don't need a fully fleshed-out concrete task
 So I guess marketing and a11y people should put together some blurbs about the campaign.
 And we can get it running
<karenesq> we also have some logistics we need to take care of on FoG administration, that we're running in parallel
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<jjmarin> I will come ASAP as possible with this general, but no so general, goal for the next FoG camopaign
<karenesq> jjmarin: let me know if I can help :)
<jjmarin> we used to have as well a ruler with the amount of money
 karensq: thanks
<karenesq> jjmarin: I think the web team took care of the ruler, but I'm not sure
<zana> just to point out the obvious, it would be great to have it up by December to hit the end-of-year gift-giving season
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<jjmarin> sure !
<shaunm> good point
<jjmarin> So yes, we are starting again FoG campaigns ;-)
<shaunm> All right, so it looks like we have a plan in place and people know what the next steps are. Do we need to discuss anything more here?
 OK
 Thanks everybody for attending, and for sharing your thoughts.
 We'd like to get back to having these meetings regularly again.
<jjmarin> o/
<karenesq> thanks shaunm for running it!
<aday> ditto, great work shaunm

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