1 14:37:31 <API> #startmeeting
   2 14:37:31 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Sep  1 14:37:31 2011 UTC.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
   3 14:37:31 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
   4 14:37:45 <API> #topic Marketing and Fundraising
   5 14:37:51 <API> jjmarin, ?
   6 14:37:55 <jjmarin> hi
   7 14:37:55 <API> something new here?
   8 14:38:12 <jjmarin> well, bryen pass me the gnome_a11y twitter account
   9 14:38:32 <jjmarin> so any suggestion
  10 14:38:32 <joanie> yay!
  11 14:38:39 <jjmarin> will be welcome
  12 14:38:40 <jjmarin> :-)
  13 14:39:22 <jjmarin> I'm going to ask the US event box master
  14 14:39:47 <joanie> Well, any time there's something a11y and gnomey to announce, tweet it. You know how to use twitter properly, so I don't think you need suggestions. ;-)
  15 14:39:54 <jjmarin> for storing the a11y banners and stand from Bryen
  16 14:40:30 <jjmarin> and we need to start to define the goal
  17 14:40:44 <jjmarin> for a FoG campaign
  18 14:41:07 <jjmarin> So far, I think the candidate for that goal
  19 14:41:24 <jjmarin> will be the Performance Evaluation and Improvement
  20 14:41:53 <jjmarin> I was thinking about starting a wiki page for wrting
  21 14:42:06 <jjmarin> the the a11y porpose
  22 14:42:16 <jjmarin> not sure if I have to do
  23 14:42:17 <jjmarin> in
  24 14:42:23 <jjmarin> https://live.gnome.org/GnomeMarketing
  25 14:42:24 <API> jjmarin, joanie has a draft and in theory I was reviewing it
  26 14:42:39 <jjmarin> OK
  27 14:42:45 <joanie> jjmarin: all a11y team stuff live in live.gnome.org/Accessibility
  28 14:42:47 <API> jjmarin, hmm, probably it would be better to add those under our roadmap wiki
  29 14:42:50 <jjmarin> anyway
  30 14:43:02 <joanie> all a11y marketing stuff live in live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Marketing
  31 14:43:06 <API> after all it is just adding details to one of the entries that we already have on the wiki
  32 14:43:23 <jjmarin> I don't know if there are other candidates
  33 14:43:27 <joanie> as for editing the roadmap....
  34 14:43:42 <jjmarin> from our roadmap
  35 14:43:46 <joanie> I'd prefer we don't edit that until we have official roadmap changes
  36 14:43:53 <joanie> in other words.....
  37 14:44:06 <joanie> I propose that if you would like to start planning the FoG on the wiki
  38 14:44:17 <joanie> you do so on live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Marketing/FoG
  39 14:44:23 <jjmarin> ok
  40 14:44:25 <joanie> please
  41 14:44:27 <joanie> and thank you
  42 14:44:28 <joanie> :-)
  43 14:45:06 <API> jjmarin, ok, could you try to summarize all these stuff in pretty #info?
  44 14:45:10 <API> for minutes sake?
  45 14:45:12 <jjmarin> but do you think we should evaluate more goals for a FoG campaign
  46 14:45:57 <jjmarin> # Juanjo will start planning the a11y FoG campaign in live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Marketing/FoG
  47 14:46:20 <joanie> jjmarin: use #action
  48 14:46:31 <joanie> for action items
  49 14:46:32 <jjmarin> oh !!!
  50 14:46:44 <joanie> and #info for things which go in the minutes (like the summary)
  51 14:46:51 <joanie> :-)
  52 14:46:56 <jjmarin> #action Juanjo will start planning the a11y FoG campaign in live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Marketing/FoG
  53 14:47:51 <jjmarin> API, so you will review the performance text
  54 14:47:54 <joanie> clown: If memory serves me, you'll have a proposal for jjmarin to include regarding gs-mag caret and focus tracking?
  55 14:48:03 <jjmarin> yes
  56 14:48:14 <clown> joanie, yes.
  57 14:48:17 <jjmarin> but, we can include this as well
  58 14:48:24 <joanie> awesome
  59 14:48:44 <clown> sorry, but remind me of the dealine again.  I was going to work on it this week, but there were other fires to put out.
  60 14:48:49 <jjmarin> so far peformance + gs-mag caret and focus tracking
  61 14:48:51 <joanie> #action Team members who want something funded need to get proposals to jjmarin
  62 14:48:55 <clown> "deadline"
  63 14:49:05 <API> jjmarin, well, yes
  64 14:49:10 <jjmarin> joanie: thanks !
  65 14:49:11 <joanie> clown: yesterday ;-)
  66 14:50:04 <API> well, anything else on this point?
  67 14:50:27 <API> jjmarin, ?
  68 14:50:29 <jjmarin> do we have any idea of the money for each of these goals ?
  69 14:50:48 <API> jjmarin, this is one of the reasons they want a specific proposal
  70 14:50:51 <jjmarin> I mean, we should provide what we want to do and how much we need
  71 14:51:06 <API> some felt that a project like that
  72 14:51:12 <API> would be too ambitious
  73 14:51:22 <API> in order to check if that should be splitted or something
  74 14:52:03 <joanie> clown: probably goes without saying given what jjmarin and API just said, but if your proposal could include a figure, that would be good I suspect. :-)
  75 14:52:47 * clown1 university's network is really flakey today. ...
  76 14:52:57 <clown1> what did I miss?
  77 14:53:12 <API> <joanie> clown: probably goes without saying given what jjmarin and API just said, but if your proposal could include a figure, that would be good I suspect. :-)
  78 14:53:12 <API> * clown1 (~clown@205.211.169.2) has joined #a11y-meeting
  79 14:53:12 <API> * clown1 university's network is really flakey today. ...
  80 14:53:12 <API> <clown1> what did I miss?
  81 14:53:43 <jjmarin> Well, I think I don't have more to say
  82 14:53:43 <clown1> thanks API.
  83 14:54:10 <API> jjmarin, ok so lets move
  84 14:54:20 <API> #topic GNOME 3.2 progress
  85 14:54:21 * clown1 wired network is completely down.  reports are some construction crew cut the fibre optic ...
  86 14:54:32 <API> at this moment I guess that the bit topic here is talk about
  87 14:54:35 <API> pygobject madness
  88 14:54:36 <joanie> "call before you dig"
  89 14:54:39 <API> joanie, jhernandez ?
  90 14:54:47 <API> something to report?
  91 14:54:49 <joanie> jhernandez: you first?
  92 14:55:27 * joanie wonders if nacho got the release off
  93 14:55:32 <jhernandez> joanie: you first!
  94 14:55:33 <jhernandez> :P
  95 14:55:46 <joanie> hah
  96 14:55:49 * clown1 herding cats ...
  97 14:56:01 <API> joanie, nacho?
  98 14:56:02 <joanie> #info Joanie committed Orca's introspection port in time for 3.1.90.
  99 14:56:25 <clown1> congratulations, joanie!
 100 14:56:26 <joanie> #info Orca now depends on pygobject 3.1.90 due to recent fixes in that module.
 101 14:56:51 <joanie> #info John Palmieri then failed to do a release of pygobject 2.90.3.
 102 14:57:18 <joanie> #info The release team pinged Joanie, also pinged John, and in theory Nacho did a pygobject 2.90.3 release.
 103 14:57:52 <joanie> #info Joanie is well aware of a number of bugs and issues resulting from the introspection work. Some are in Orca, some in Gtk+, some remain to be found.
 104 14:58:00 <API> joanie: from #release-team
 105 14:58:02 <API> <fredp> the missing piece was pygobject, and it arrived during the meeting
 106 14:58:02 <API> <mclasen> yeah
 107 14:58:22 <joanie> #info Joanie is both optimistic and fearful of getting things out in time for shipping GNOME 3.2, but she'll do her very best.
 108 14:58:57 <joanie> #info Piñeiro reported from #release-team that the release of pygobject has been done.
 109 14:58:59 <joanie> (done)
 110 14:59:03 <joanie> API thanks for checking!!
 111 14:59:08 <API> and in fact
 112 14:59:09 <API> http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/gnome/sources/pygobject/2.90/
 113 14:59:23 <joanie> API I was going to look while jhernandez did his report
 114 14:59:26 <API> the files are thre
 115 14:59:28 <joanie> but then jhernandez told me to go first
 116 14:59:30 <API> there
 117 14:59:58 <joanie> jhernandez: your turn
 118 15:00:10 <jhernandez> so, Accerciser is in the same state as Orca is
 119 15:00:42 <jhernandez> we have some known issues regarding pygobject/gtk/whatever
 120 15:00:45 <joanie> jhernandez: #info is your friend :-P
 121 15:01:26 <jhernandez> #info jhernandez accomplished accerciser's introspection port for 2.1.90
 122 15:01:46 <jhernandez> s/2/3/
 123 15:01:49 <jhernandez> :]
 124 15:02:29 <jhernandez> #info there are some known issues regarding pygobject/gtk/whatever and I'm working on them
 125 15:02:49 <joanie> jhernandez: known issues are going to kill us
 126 15:02:56 <jhernandez> joanie: :P
 127 15:03:06 * clown unknown issues just stab you in the back.
 128 15:03:18 <jhernandez> clown: for sure!
 129 15:03:19 <jhernandez> xD
 130 15:03:22 <jhernandez> so, I'm done
 131 15:03:37 <joanie> jhernandez: congrats on your release!
 132 15:03:48 <jhernandez> joanie: congrats for yours too!!
 133 15:03:54 <jhernandez> ;)
 134 15:03:56 <joanie> (ours)
 135 15:03:57 <joanie> ;-)
 136 15:04:01 <jhernandez> :]
 137 15:05:07 <API> well, so in summary all the modules using old gtk bindings were ported, right?
 138 15:05:29 <joanie> API all a11y modules
 139 15:05:33 <joanie> to our knowledge
 140 15:05:54 <joanie> everyone else, who knows?
 141 15:06:28 <jhernandez> API: AFAIK, yes
 142 15:07:06 <API> well, good news
 143 15:07:18 <API> so the only "old stuff" still around is gconf
 144 15:07:22 <API> right?
 145 15:07:36 <bnitz> API:I'm not sure "everything" is true.
 146 15:07:42 <bnitz> But maybe everything within gnome.
 147 15:07:48 <bnitz> I'm working on fixes for LDTP and mago
 148 15:07:51 * joanie doesn't have any gcof
 149 15:07:54 <joanie> or gconf
 150 15:08:03 <API> although I guess that with the gconf-dbus background that is less important
 151 15:08:12 <API> <bnitz> API:I'm not sure "everything" is true.
 152 15:08:15 <API> I don't understand
 153 15:08:23 <API> what it is "everything"?
 154 15:08:35 <jhernandez> accerciser uses gconf for only to store its preferences, but I'm working on the gsettings port
 155 15:09:34 <joanie> jhernandez: and we still need to revisit, merge your gsettings work for Orca ;-)
 156 15:09:56 <bnitz> API:I think I just repeated what joanie said, in a less clear way ;-).
 157 15:10:30 <API> bnitz, ah ok
 158 15:10:33 * joanie grins
 159 15:10:54 <joanie> speaking Piñeiro takes years of practice bnitz :-P
 160 15:10:59 <joanie> eventually you'll master it.
 161 15:11:03 * joanie runs and hides
 162 15:11:10 <jhernandez> joanie: you're right! ;)
 163 15:11:24 <API> ok, so using #infor
 164 15:11:48 <API> #info a11y modules are already ported to new pygobject, as far as the a11y team knows
 165 15:12:04 <API> #info work to migrate to gsettings is really near to be finished
 166 15:12:13 <API> ok, something else about gnome 3.2
 167 15:12:17 <API> I will try to ask clown
 168 15:12:27 <API> hoping that he will be connected long enough
 169 15:12:32 <clown> API, go ahead try...
 170 15:12:46 <API> it seems that some of your gs-mag thing will not be ready for 3.2...
 171 15:13:10 <clown> that appears to be correct.  no go ahead on committing any of the patches.
 172 15:13:23 * joanie frowns
 173 15:13:35 <API> clown, I was reviewing some of your bugs
 174 15:13:37 <joanie> clown: nice try on getting them through
 175 15:13:45 <API> and it seems that it is related to some of the work moved to clutter
 176 15:13:55 <API> and due being on API frozen mode now
 177 15:14:07 <API> is this the reason for the "no go ahead" or there is something more?
 178 15:14:20 <joanie> #info Joanie notes that, for the record, Joseph did tons of work and responded in a timely fashion to feedback provided to him.
 179 15:14:30 <clown> thanks, joanie.
 180 15:14:46 <clown> I don't know of anything more, API.
 181 15:14:56 <joanie> clown: thank YOU. Some things are simply beyond our control :-/
 182 15:15:10 <clown> I responded to criticisms, made changes to code, and supplied new patches.
 183 15:15:24 <clown> but, there was always "one more thing" to improve.
 184 15:15:38 <clown> that is, the reviewer asked for another change or changes.
 185 15:15:39 <API> joanie, well, this is the point "tons of work"
 186 15:15:41 <joanie> I know clown
 187 15:15:48 <clown> and time just went past the deadline.
 188 15:16:08 <API> clown, yes thats true, it seems that they always ask your for the finished version
 189 15:16:16 <API> sometimes they are more conservative than me ;
 190 15:16:17 <API> )
 191 15:16:21 <clown> although... in one case, there was not a full review of my patch -- that's the inverse video, brightness, and contrast effects.
 192 15:17:24 <API> but that was the one moved to clutter, right?
 193 15:18:17 <API> well, as time passes and so on, joanie provided a #info with some conclusions, but there is a little lack of context
 194 15:18:25 <API> clown, could you summarize all this in a pretty #info
 195 15:18:26 <clown> yes, about two weeks ago, when it looked like GS would review it, the suggestion was to move parts of it to clutter.
 196 15:18:42 <clown> API, info's comin up...
 197 15:19:12 <clown> #info Joseph's feature additions to gs-mag will not be ready for 3.2
 198 15:19:38 <clown> #info these include a gnome-control-center zoom options dialog for the current gs-mag preferences.
 199 15:20:02 <clown> #info inverse video, brightness, and contrast effects for gs-mag.
 200 15:20:29 <clown> #info new gsettings for those three screen effects (gsettings-desktop-schemas).
 201 15:21:02 <clown> #info near the 3.2 deadline, the suggestion was to move the effects to up stream to clutter
 202 15:21:29 <clown> #info clutter developer is okay with that, but doesn't want to add the classes util October time frame.
 203 15:21:48 <clown> #info summary:  gs-mag feature improvements missed the 3.2 deadline.
 204 15:21:56 <clown> I think that captures it.
 205 15:22:47 <clown> so... done
 206 15:22:57 <joanie> thanks clown
 207 15:23:07 <joanie> 3.4 here we come! :-)
 208 15:23:34 <API> anyone else has something to add about 3.2?
 209 15:23:46 <jjmarin> Remind: dear members of the a11y team, we have some release notes for 3.2 first :-)
 210 15:23:54 <jjmarin> http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/ReleaseNotes/ThreePointTwo
 211 15:23:54 <joanie> :-)
 212 15:24:22 <API> there is any kind of #reminder thing in meetbot?
 213 15:24:30 <joanie> I dunno
 214 15:24:33 <joanie> I shall find out
 215 15:24:38 <jjmarin> #help
 216 15:24:45 <jjmarin> hmmm
 217 15:24:50 <joanie> jjmarin: later
 218 15:24:59 <API> ok, as workaround
 219 15:25:14 <API> #info jjmarin reminds to all a11y members the need to fill the release notes
 220 15:25:23 <API> 5 minutes till the  end
 221 15:25:29 <API> #topic miscellaneous time
 222 15:25:31 <clown> jjmarin, help just assigns a person to provide some aid (not sure what that entails).
 223 15:26:03 <joanie> #help (alias #halp)
 224 15:26:03 <joanie> Add a HELP item to the minutes. Confusingly, this does not give supybot help. See #commands.
 225 15:26:05 <clown> #commands
 226 15:26:05 <tota11y> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #rejected #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk
 227 15:26:29 <API> guys, focus
 228 15:26:30 <API> ;)
 229 15:26:34 <joanie> I have something for misc time
 230 15:26:39 <clown> #focus
 231 15:26:40 <API> miscellaneous time is not so miscellaneous
 232 15:26:44 <API> a11y stuff please ;)
 233 15:26:58 <joanie> mgorse: what's the status on the check a11y work?
 234 15:27:16 <jjmarin> "check a11y work" ?
 235 15:27:28 <joanie> org.a11y.Status.IsEnabled
 236 15:27:37 <joanie> can be read but not written
 237 15:27:40 <joanie> etc.
 238 15:27:50 <jjmarin> ok
 239 15:27:52 <joanie> in other words, we need a freedesktop solution to check if a11y is enabled
 240 15:28:13 <joanie> not a gnome key versus a kde environment var versus whatever xfce does
 241 15:28:29 <mgorse> yeah, right now it can be read but not written
 242 15:28:56 <mgorse> except that it might not work right if a11y is toggled until the session is restarted; it works by checking whether the accessibility bus is active
 243 15:28:57 <joanie> mgorse: so dumb question. If it "cannot be written" does that mean no one can set it?
 244 15:29:05 <clown> "org.freedesktop.a11y.Status.Enabled"?
 245 15:29:21 <mgorse> yeah
 246 15:29:32 <joanie> yeah to which?
 247 15:29:53 <mgorse> a11y can't be toggled that way yet
 248 15:30:23 <clown> what process(es) can toggle it?
 249 15:30:41 <mgorse> gsettings for GNOME
 250 15:31:28 <joanie> mgorse: do we have an estimated time for full implementation so that we have a reliable, freedesktop-wide solution we can all use?
 251 15:32:43 <mgorse> If people really want that in for 3.2, then I can try to work on it, although I presume I need permission from the release team
 252 15:33:11 <joanie> Oh, I'd love it for 3.2 because then we can get it used by xfce
 253 15:33:24 <joanie> not that we'd say that as a justification. ;-)
 254 15:34:06 * joanie wonders if our fearless RT member could get that change blessed
 255 15:34:39 <API> well, it seems just a little addition
 256 15:34:44 <API> that nobody is using
 257 15:34:51 <API> I mean that it would be different if
 258 15:35:04 <API> we were talking about something that all people are using and we
 259 15:35:12 <API> were planning to modigy somehow
 260 15:35:23 <API> but that just my humble opinion ;)
 261 15:35:29 <joanie> :-)
 262 15:35:43 <joanie> mgorse: could you do a patch on a bug so we can ask for blessing?
 263 15:35:48 <API> mgorse, you could try to send again that mail asking if it makes sense
 264 15:35:48 <joanie> please
 265 15:35:54 <API> well, makes sense
 266 15:35:57 <API> it makes sense
 267 15:36:08 <API> I mean if people think that can be added before 3.2
 268 15:36:13 <mgorse> I'd also need to test that it works to enable/disable a11y at runtime, which is the main reason I didn't commit it with the other change.  I ought to have done this sooner; it just slipped my mind / never made it onto my to-do list
 269 15:36:16 <API> if nobody ask I could try to ping people on IRC
 270 15:36:46 <mgorse> API: For a feature freeze break, should I have a patch first, and then email release-team?
 271 15:36:46 <joanie> API ping people == ?
 272 15:37:34 <API> mgorse, not sure if this is a requirement but it would make things easier
 273 15:37:48 <API> you could also try to send the mail first, to at least check
 274 15:37:55 <API> if they are receptive
 275 15:38:04 <API> joanie, next release team meeting is planed in one month
 276 15:38:10 <joanie> ah
 277 15:38:11 <mgorse> Regardless, working on a patch won't hurt, since we'll need it anyway, whether it goes into 3.2 or not
 278 15:38:20 <joanie> +1 mgorse
 279 15:38:20 <API> ping people means: hey, have you seen mgorse mail? what do you think?
 280 15:38:28 <joanie> API I know what ping means
 281 15:38:30 <API> so getting the bless via IRC instead ml
 282 15:38:33 <joanie> I meant what people and why
 283 15:39:02 <API> joanie, well, people==release team folks, why==next meeting in a month more or less
 284 15:39:10 <joanie> anyway, mgorse you rock thanks!!!
 285 15:39:18 <joanie> API thanks for the clarification
 286 15:39:29 <API> well in fact
 287 15:39:31 <API> - next meeting: September 15th, 18UTC
 288 15:39:49 <joanie> that's only two weeks away. mgorse how much work is involved?
 289 15:40:35 <mgorse> Oh wow   3.1.91 is this coming Monday?!
 290 15:40:45 <joanie> zomg really?
 291 15:40:46 <joanie> crap
 292 15:40:55 <joanie> that means I don't get to sleep again
 293 15:41:02 <joanie> frick
 294 15:41:22 <joanie> jhernandez: you see that ^^ ?
 295 15:41:26 <jhernandez> yepo
 296 15:41:28 <jhernandez> :S
 297 15:41:31 <clown> Monday is labour day.  North Amercian holiday, at least.
 298 15:41:32 <API> mgorse, joanie
 299 15:41:32 <mgorse> It would have been two weeks from .90 with the original .90 date, so I guess the release team delayed .90 but not .91
 300 15:41:33 <joanie> .91 is typically code freeze
 301 15:41:34 <API> https://live.gnome.org/ThreePointOne
 302 15:42:05 <API> an .92 hard code freeze
 303 15:42:17 <joanie> phew
 304 15:42:18 <API> 
 305 15:42:18 <API> Sep 19
 306 15:42:18 <API> 
 307 15:42:18 <API> GNOME 3.1.92 rc tarballs due
 308 15:42:18 <API> 
 309 15:42:20 <API> Hard Code Freeze: no source code changes can be made without approval from the release-team. Translation and documentation can continue.
 310 15:43:04 <joanie> #info For the record, Joanie would like it known that she knows exactly where the schedule happens to be but is sleep deprived and has a migraine due to getting the introspection work done. :-P
 311 15:43:47 <API> oke 15 minutes over time
 312 15:43:51 <API> lets finish this
 313 15:43:58 <API> thanks people for coming here
 314 15:44:01 <API> #endmeeting