1 14:36:58 <joanie> #startmeeting
   2 14:36:58 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Aug 18 14:36:58 2011 UTC.  The chair is joanie. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
   3 14:36:58 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
   4 14:37:16 <joanie> Agenda is in the topic as usual
   5 14:37:26 <joanie> #topic Collection Interface
   6 14:37:57 <joanie> #info Aline was working on documentation for AtspiCollection and had questions and doubts.
   7 14:38:14 <joanie> #info Aline asked Mike and Joanie about them, and Mike and Joanie were not sure either.
   8 14:38:32 <joanie> #info Joanie started looking through the code to see if she could help explain the interface to Aline.
   9 14:39:07 <joanie> #info Upon seeing what all was present, and reviewing what she needed to do in Orca, Joanie asked the following question on the devel list: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-accessibility-devel/2011-August/msg00000.html
  10 14:39:33 <joanie> #info Only Ariel answered and his answers were not complete and still left questions and doubts.
  11 14:39:51 <joanie> #info We're going to be implementing AtkCollection, and Joanie thinks this mess needs sorting out.
  12 14:40:05 <joanie> Okay, sorry to present via #info but it does make the minutes easier.
  13 14:40:18 <joanie> I'm opening the floor to discussion, ideas, etc. on the entire mess
  14 14:40:21 * joanie sits
  15 14:40:22 <machado> no prob
  16 14:42:24 <joanie> So... No opinions?
  17 14:42:42 <joanie> I mean, should I just change the spec of collection interface?
  18 14:42:58 <joanie> because I'm brilliant and all should do as I say? (joke, joke, joke)
  19 14:43:28 <joanie> I think we need some sort of input on the matter. Other than my asking what the heck all that stuff is for. ;-)
  20 14:43:45 <jjmarin> I guess that if the new one means some improvement, this makes sense
  21 14:44:04 <machado> :) Sorry, I do not know much about the topic.... so I would rather listen about it. Bu I am looking to the directions cited
  22 14:44:07 <prlw1> An opinion is: KISS is good: I just got rid of over 1500 lines of dasher code on Friday, so simplify interfaces. Orca is a good consumer. If you haven't needed these functions, then it sounds as though they superfluous. That's just an "opinion" though - I have never used collections!
  23 14:44:09 <AlanBell> some of the stuff in there, getting objects by chuncks looks like they were useful performance hacks for the PCs of the time
  24 14:44:27 <mgorse> Hi all. Sorry for being late.
  25 14:44:45 <joanie> mgorse: hey. No worries
  26 14:45:09 <jjmarin> hi mgorse: we're talking about the collection interface
  27 14:45:32 <joanie> prlw1: Yeah, the problem is that no one has ever used collections. :-)
  28 14:46:30 <jjmarin> Do we know if the collection interface is used anywhere ?
  29 14:46:30 <joanie> AlanBell: Yeah, by the way (to all) I forgot to mention that at the Linux Foundation Open Accessibility Workgroup meeting the other day, which mgorse and I attend, the conclusion from the IA2 folks was similar: It was done for performance reasons.
  30 14:46:36 <joanie> jjmarin: In Orca.
  31 14:46:45 <AlanBell> what is the harm in leaving them?
  32 14:46:58 <joanie> AlanBell: I'm not saying remove all of collection.
  33 14:47:07 <joanie> I'm saying remove the superfluous crap
  34 14:47:12 <joanie> and make the interface more clear
  35 14:47:16 <joanie> AND the reason being:
  36 14:47:24 <joanie> We need to implement AtkCollection
  37 14:47:34 <joanie> and we want AT-SPI2 and ATK to be in sync
  38 14:48:02 <joanie> so if AT-SPI2 is filled with confusing, convoluted stuff (and possible hackish garbage)
  39 14:48:07 <joanie> which we don't need
  40 14:48:28 <joanie> Should we really be wasting finite resources to implement a less-than-ideal AtkCollection?
  41 14:48:59 <joanie> And then turning around and asking toolkit developers to then implement it?
  42 14:49:17 <joanie> Instead I think we should figure out what the interface should look like, both AT-SPI2 and ATK.
  43 14:49:26 <joanie> make sense?
  44 14:49:31 <AlanBell> does to me
  45 14:49:35 <joanie> (i.e. that this isn't change for change's sake)
  46 14:49:43 <jjmarin> If collection is just a performance hack, we can reconsider the performance problem and find another approach that it easier to get AT-SPI2 and ATK in sync
  47 14:50:01 <joanie> jjmarin: +1
  48 14:50:16 <joanie> But for a number of reasons that's not really ideal
  49 14:50:30 <joanie> And the most critical one is.... Well, lemme be lazy and #info it.
  50 14:50:52 <machado> on the other hand, do we have any idea hoa many actual users of those collections still use old style computers?
  51 14:51:12 <machado> s/hoa/how
  52 14:51:21 <joanie> #info The driving factor for why we need to do AtkCollection sooner rather than later is because LibreOffice needs such a solution in place because they refuse to expose full documents and spreadsheets to ATs.
  53 14:52:04 <joanie> machado: I wouldn't necessary say "old style computers" as much as I would say "general accessibility performance issues" (which might still persist)
  54 14:52:24 <joanie> Anyhoo, regarding the libreoffice stuff, there are libreoffice developers **waiting for us**
  55 14:52:36 <machado> joanie: agreed
  56 14:52:51 <joanie> to implement AtkCollection or something that more or less looks an awful lot like collection, but in AtkDocument
  57 14:52:57 <joanie> so... We have to move forward.
  58 14:53:08 <joanie> anyhoo, if API were here, he'd kill me for the deep dive
  59 14:53:12 <joanie> so I'm going to conclude
  60 14:53:56 <joanie> #action Team members are encouraged to comment on the mailing list thread.
  61 14:54:09 <joanie> I'll summarize the discussion manually when I do the minutes.
  62 14:54:27 <joanie> the next topic is aline's who isn't here yet
  63 14:54:28 <joanie> so...
  64 14:54:43 <joanie> #topic Should we back out the fix for Bug 656004?
  65 14:54:43 <tota11y> 04Bug https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=656004 normal, Normal, ---, liyuan, UNCONFIRMED, GNOME-Shell gets frozen on selection events using Orca
  66 14:54:55 <joanie> mgorse: I'm starting to think we should.
  67 14:55:17 <joanie> But I don't know how much of this is pygobject version stuff
  68 14:55:24 * joanie gives floor to mgorse
  69 14:57:08 <mgorse> joanie: sorry--I'm not really sure what is going on right now. I need to investigate--should have done that a while ago...
  70 14:57:29 <joanie> mgorse: okay
  71 14:57:36 <mgorse> My guess is that some versions of pygobject crash if we use a GPtrArray, and some crash if we use a GArray
  72 14:58:01 <mgorse> and, looking at the git log, it looks as though the newest pygobject might fix the GArray issue
  73 14:58:17 <mgorse> and there are other cases in libatspi that I missed (in collection, for instance) that use a GArray
  74 14:58:39 <mgorse> so crash on my system. I tried updating pygobject last night on my system, but then I ran into other problems, since I needed to update gobject-introspection as well.
  75 14:58:51 <joanie> mgorse: could you #info what should be recorded in the minutes?
  76 14:58:57 <joanie> (please)
  77 14:59:31 <mgorse> Anyway, if the newest version of pygobject works without the change, at least, then I don't mind backing it out, although probably need to check with API at least, since I think we're in API freeze
  78 14:59:40 <mgorse> okay, I'll #info
  79 15:00:22 <mgorse> #info mgorse will investigate whether there is a crash without the fix for 656004 with the newest pygobject
  80 15:00:52 <mgorse> #info since it apparently *causes* a crash for some people, possibly depending on the version of pygobject used
  81 15:01:06 <mgorse> #info and now the API is inconsistent, since collections still use GArrays
  82 15:01:13 <prlw1> (So, at-spi2-core correctly changed from returning a GArray of AtspiAccessible pointers, to a GPtrArray, and that causes pygobject to croak?)
  83 15:02:20 <mgorse> prlw1: I changed it because pygobject was crashing when a GArray was used, because it interpreted the elements at flat objects rather than pointers, or at least some version of pygobject does. And now that change is apparently causing a crash for some versions of pygobject.
  84 15:03:02 <prlw1> sounds more like a pyobject problem?
  85 15:03:40 <joanie> prlw1: And different people are using different versions of pygobject depending on their development environment
  86 15:04:11 <joanie> it's honestly (to me) quite disturbing because 2.28.6 is still filled with breakage
  87 15:04:29 <joanie> and *tons* of changes have and are still taking place in unstable (2.29.x)
  88 15:04:40 <joanie> (they're not using the traditional GNOME version numbers)
  89 15:04:49 <joanie> and we have the .90 release next week
  90 15:05:03 <joanie> and people saying, so, is Orca going to have introspection done?
  91 15:05:33 <joanie> anyway, sorry for that mini rant
  92 15:05:40 <joanie> anything else on this topic?
  93 15:05:59 <jjmarin> I'm checking the state of wXwigets
  94 15:06:02 <mgorse> joanie: Is API away? I should probably talk with him if he's here--not sure if I need to consult the release team if I'm going to back out that change
  95 15:06:29 <jjmarin> sorry ... another topic
  96 15:06:34 <joanie> mgorse: yeah, he had a conflict
  97 15:06:48 <joanie> and also an oneiric update gone south
  98 15:07:04 <mgorse> okay. I'll find him if he's on later in the week. In the meantime I'll investigate some
  99 15:07:05 <joanie> but I *think* he'll be around tomorrow
 100 15:07:12 <joanie> mgorse: Thank you!!!
 101 15:07:40 <prlw1> the change looks correct though - you back it out, when will it be safe to "back it back in"?
 102 15:07:57 <prlw1> (need an extra "if" in previous)
 103 15:08:51 <joanie> prlw1: I'm not sure, but what I'm thinking is this, fwiw:
 104 15:09:25 <joanie> The change was made at least in part due to an issue I stumbled across whilst working on Orca's introspection port (right mgorse?)
 105 15:09:41 <joanie> and that most people aren't in need of that fix
 106 15:09:49 <mgorse> joanie: My guess is that you updated pygobject and then started running into it
 107 15:09:56 <joanie> mgorse: correct
 108 15:10:18 <joanie> because I learned in #python a while back that many things I need to do this conversion are only in pygobject master
 109 15:10:23 <joanie> or at the time were
 110 15:10:28 <joanie> so 2.29.1
 111 15:10:37 <mgorse> What we have now is inconsistent, because I missed some things, so I'd like to either back it out or change the others, but either would be an API break
 112 15:10:52 <joanie> Anyhoo, my point is this guys:
 113 15:11:04 <prlw1> mgorse: ah...
 114 15:11:08 <joanie> Different versions of pygobject are so freaking different
 115 15:11:26 <joanie> and pygobject is still quite unstable (imho) this late in the release cycle
 116 15:11:54 <joanie> that my answer to people who ask about my commiting Orca's introspection port in time for 3.2 shall be "are you f*cking insane?"
 117 15:11:56 <joanie> ;-)
 118 15:12:07 <joanie> thus, I don't need this fix now.
 119 15:12:20 <joanie> and it could be backed out if that is what mgorse and API decide is best.
 120 15:12:55 <joanie> (re apologies for re ranting.)
 121 15:13:02 <prlw1> OK :-) (or change the others too )
 122 15:13:08 <mgorse> People using the newest pygobject *may* need it, though. Afaik no one commented on the bug that I filed, although it may have been delt with looking at the git log. So I need to figure out if the crash only happens with a small range of unstable pygobject versions
 123 15:13:40 <joanie> mgorse: Ok. If you could just figure out what is best and let me know, I'll proceed accordingly.
 124 15:13:51 <joanie> so... moving on?
 125 15:13:56 <mgorse> (actually Joanie filed the bug and I commented on it)
 126 15:15:09 <joanie> I want to jump to action items since Aline isn't here to talk about docs.
 127 15:15:17 <joanie> #topic Action item updates
 128 15:15:45 <joanie> To be efficient, I'll call on folks. Folks state updates with #info at the front. Minutes generate themselves.
 129 15:15:50 <joanie> :-)
 130 15:16:06 <joanie> jjmarin: investigate wxWidgets' internals and how it uses Gtk+
 131 15:16:53 <jjmarin> #info Yesterday Juanjo compiled the branch from the wxWidgets GSoC that is porting wxWidgets to GTK+ 3.
 132 15:17:24 <jjmarin> #info So ASAP  Juanjo'll take a look to the code and the a11y support and he'll bring his conclusions here :-)
 133 15:17:31 <joanie> Yay!
 134 15:17:46 <joanie> And this is for eviacam, right?
 135 15:18:04 <jjmarin> yes
 136 15:18:11 <joanie> awesome
 137 15:18:17 <joanie> Thanks for the update!
 138 15:18:38 <jjmarin> eviacam is written with wxwigets
 139 15:19:15 <joanie> It will be nice to have such a solution
 140 15:19:25 <joanie> and evicam + dasher would be cool I thnk
 141 15:19:30 <joanie> and also think
 142 15:19:45 <joanie> mgorse: so you have two, but one is a case of me not removing/updating your action items. (Sorry!)
 143 15:19:57 <joanie> The first which I need to remove is the relocate checks thing
 144 15:20:09 <joanie> mgorse: but did you ever do this one:
 145 15:20:12 <joanie> File a bug regarding GAIL treeview children / children-changed signals, attach a patch, and call for testers.
 146 15:21:33 <mgorse> No, I don't think I ever did that. Took me a minute to remember what it was.
 147 15:21:52 <joanie> mgorse: heh, me too. that is why I went with copy and paste. *grins*
 148 15:21:55 <joanie> no worries
 149 15:22:20 <joanie> bnitz: you have a couple. What's the latest with the testing stuff?
 150 15:22:54 <bnitz> #info building 3.1.x on the latest a11y test distro
 151 15:23:26 <bnitz> #info I find that LDTP and Mago do not work.
 152 15:23:47 <joanie> bnitz: I'm sorry, this is my sleep deprivation no doubt, but when you say building 3.1.x... 3.1.x of what?
 153 15:23:57 <joanie> the desktop via jhbuild? accerciser??
 154 15:23:59 <bnitz> #info modified LDTP and Mago to use gi for wnck import but still needs work to port mago to use gsettings.
 155 15:24:22 <bnitz> joanie:sorry, I'll try to clarify
 156 15:27:06 <bnitz> #info correction, building GEDIT 3.1.3 and other components using jhbuild on latest accessibility testing distro.
 157 15:28:03 <bnitz> # Documentation of accessibility testing tools TBD
 158 15:28:19 <bnitz> #info Documentation of accessibility testing tools TBD
 159 15:28:30 <bnitz> That's all.
 160 15:28:53 <joanie> thanks bnitz!
 161 15:29:00 <bnitz> np.
 162 15:29:04 <joanie> Uh... I've got one of my own
 163 15:29:54 <joanie> #info With respect to investigating what other resources we have/can draw upon to achieve the desktop performance testing work: Joanie has drafted a proposal for a contract.
 164 15:30:13 <joanie> #info That proposal is still being reviewed by Piñeiro.
 165 15:30:35 <joanie> #info But the amount proposed ($25,000 US) was included in the team budget
 166 15:31:00 <joanie> #info Pending Piñeiro's approval, the plan is to then submit it to the GNOME Foundation Board for approval
 167 15:31:18 <joanie> #info And if the Foundation Board approves it, we shall then put it out for bid.
 168 15:31:21 <jjmarin> +1
 169 15:31:28 <joanie> (done)
 170 15:31:50 <joanie> As an aside, we just don't have the resources in team to do everything we need to do
 171 15:32:13 <joanie> so Piñeiro and I are thinking at each year we budget for a major task we need done
 172 15:32:18 <joanie> and convince the Board to pay for it
 173 15:32:28 <joanie> since it benefits GNOME and its users.
 174 15:32:39 <joanie> after all, unlike most teams, we're largely volunteers.
 175 15:32:51 <joanie> anyhoo.... anything else on the action item front?
 176 15:33:10 <joanie> and if not... 2 minutes over, but.
 177 15:33:17 <joanie> #topic Miscellaneous Time
 178 15:33:29 <joanie> if anyone has anything quickish to say, the floor is yours.
 179 15:33:32 * joanie sits
 180 15:34:22 <joanie> going once....
 181 15:34:28 * joanie raises the gavel
 182 15:34:37 <joanie> going twice....
 183 15:35:10 <joanie> #endmeeting