Attachment '20110303_log.txt'
Download 1 14:29:26 * Now talking on #a11y-meeting
2 14:30:27 <API> wow, 3 people ...
3 14:30:31 <API> things are improving
4 14:31:38 * bnitz (~bn128650@gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com) has joined #a11y-meeting
5 14:32:29 <API> clown, can you give the the op here?
6 14:32:51 <clown> good morning all
7 14:33:18 <clown> API, I'm baffled as to how I got to be channel master -- what's the command to make others so.
8 14:33:19 <clown> ?
9 14:33:32 * li_ (~chatzilla@115.170.118.86) has joined #a11y-meeting
10 14:33:42 <API> clown, well, you are the master because I guess that you was the first to arrive to the channel ;)
11 14:33:47 <API> about how give me the op ...
12 14:34:00 <clown> *whistles*
13 14:34:03 <API> well I guess that this depends on any client
14 14:34:10 <API> I mean
15 14:34:16 <API> on the specific irc client
16 14:34:16 <tbsaunde> clown: your an op because you were the first to enter an empty channel (lol irc)
17 14:34:27 * clown I'm number one!
18 14:34:45 * clown looking up various irc / commands.
19 14:35:19 <bnitz> I don't know anyone else needs channel operator status, do we?
20 14:36:15 <API> well, I was just wanted the op to change the channel title
21 14:36:20 <API> or header or whatever
22 14:36:21 <API> ;)
23 14:36:32 <API> but it is not really important
24 14:36:44 <API> anyway, clown as you are the chief today, please go
25 14:36:47 <API> on
26 14:36:51 <API> and lead the meeting ;)
27 14:36:57 * danigm (~danigm@ks24874.kimsufi.com) has joined #a11y-meeting
28 14:37:03 <clown> okay...
29 14:37:08 * clown looks up agenda
30 14:37:15 <clown> http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Meetings
31 14:37:30 <clown> agenda item one is: Testing, testing, testing!
32 14:37:38 <clown> testing of:
33 14:37:43 <clown> AT-SPI2
34 14:37:47 <clown> GNOME Shell,
35 14:37:53 <clown> new treeview, and
36 14:38:00 <clown> Gtk3 themes.
37 14:38:06 * clown the floor is open.
38 14:38:32 <API> yes, well
39 14:38:45 <API> joanie and me were talking
40 14:38:49 <API> about the theme thing yesterday
41 14:39:01 <API> as Matthias Clasen send a mail about it
42 14:39:08 <API> saying that they update that
43 14:39:15 <API> so, in our "we need to test things"
44 14:39:40 <API> item
45 14:39:49 <API> so about the themes
46 14:39:53 <API> we need to check
47 14:40:05 <API> 1. if the current a11y theme are working fine
48 14:40:13 <API> and, something that I didn't know
49 14:40:19 <API> joanie thinks that some
50 14:40:25 <API> of the current a11y themes
51 14:40:28 <API> wel
52 14:40:31 <API> well
53 14:40:39 <API> that "are not good enough"
54 14:40:39 <API> ;)
55 14:40:59 <API> in theory one of the reason of this new theme
56 14:41:05 <API> engine
57 14:41:19 <API> is having a more flexible theming
58 14:41:30 <API> being easier to create a new one, and more options on it
59 14:41:37 <API> so the other thing to test is
60 14:41:47 <API> 2. Can we improve the a11y themes?
61 14:42:29 <API> well
62 14:42:36 <API> opinions, questions?
63 14:43:09 <li_> do we have bugs for the "not good enough"?
64 14:43:33 <bnitz> I was trying to think about how any theme tests can be automatable and it sounds like "not good enough" is pretty far from the automatable realm.
65 14:43:56 <API> li_, well this was a informal chatting with joanie
66 14:44:01 <API> she has that feeling
67 14:44:07 <API> bnitz, yes it is hard to test it
68 14:44:16 <API> mainly because we are talking about themes
69 14:44:23 <API> like high contrast inverse
70 14:44:35 <API> and we just want to test that the people that need those themes
71 14:44:44 <API> are able to properly identify the elements on the screen
72 14:44:53 * korn (~Peter_Kor@75-25-140-220.lightspeed.okldca.sbcglobal.net) has joined #a11y-meeting
73 14:44:54 <API> it is not just about "not good enough"
74 14:44:59 <bnitz> It _may_ be possible to determine whether a component honors themes at all. In the past this was a common problem
75 14:45:12 <API> bnitz, well yes
76 14:45:25 <API> but this is just test that the current theme is running
77 14:45:29 <API> and the elements are using it
78 14:45:36 <API> not if the theme are really
79 14:45:50 <API> fulfilling his
80 14:45:51 <API> purpose
81 14:46:04 <API> ah mon, I will check that informal chatting
82 14:46:26 <bnitz> even the "does this component honor theme" test is quite a bit of work, isolating the component's bitmap, snapshot, change theme, snapshot, compare. Unless anyone knows of a better way.
83 14:47:12 <korn> Brian - it would be useful to simply see if the icon changed when the theme changed.
84 14:47:17 <API> bnitz, yes it seems a lot of work
85 14:47:20 <API> and this is the reason
86 14:47:24 <API> IMHO
87 14:47:31 <API> it is required manual testing
88 14:48:00 <API> anyway, about this "not good enough" thing
89 14:48:05 <API> as this is really subjective
90 14:48:07 <bnitz> I think peter's suggestion to see if the icon changed is possible.
91 14:48:12 <API> what it is true is that
92 14:48:23 <API> it would be good to check if creating themes are easier now
93 14:48:31 * clown has quit (Remote closed the connection)
94 14:48:33 <API> AFAIR, create a theme on gtk2 was
95 14:48:37 <API> complex
96 14:48:44 <API> and undocumented
97 14:48:56 * joanie (~jd@c-98-217-239-60.hsd1.nh.comcast.net) has joined #a11y-meeting
98 14:49:01 <API> hi joanie
99 14:49:04 <li_> hi joanie
100 14:49:12 <joanie> API sorry, I'm *really* sick
101 14:49:20 <API> no problem, I already supposed that
102 14:49:31 <API> anyway, we were still on the first point
103 14:49:33 <API> testing
104 14:49:43 <API> and talking about theme thing
105 14:49:58 <API> in summary, the actions I proposed was:
106 14:50:00 <API> <API> 1. if the current a11y theme are working fine
107 14:50:06 <API> <API> 2. Can we improve the a11y themes?
108 14:50:18 <API> 2 in relation that in theory the new theme engine is more flexible and easy to use
109 14:50:23 <API> <API> AFAIR, create a theme on gtk2 was
110 14:50:23 <API> <API> complex
111 14:50:23 <API> <API> and undocumented
112 14:50:35 * joanie nods
113 14:50:37 <API> and we were talking about it about 20 minutes
114 14:50:38 <API> so
115 14:50:44 <joanie> :-)
116 14:50:47 <API> any other question or comments before moving on?
117 14:50:55 * clown (~clown@205.211.169.2) has joined #a11y-meeting
118 14:52:05 <bnitz> API:Anything else within testing?
119 14:52:15 <API> bnitz, well just in case
120 14:52:17 * clown is back (our uplink went down).
121 14:52:21 <API> this point is about testing
122 14:52:24 <API> but it is more related
123 14:52:26 <API> to
124 14:52:27 <bnitz> Has anyone looked at the mago-based accessibility tests I have in launchpad?
125 14:52:29 <API> "people
126 14:52:40 <API> take a gnome 3 distribution and test manually if a11y is working"
127 14:52:52 <API> bnitz, well, have you announced that you have that?
128 14:53:03 <API> because I don't remember any mail on gnome-accessibility-devel about it
129 14:53:28 <bnitz> API: Maybe not. Sorry I should send it to the list.
130 14:53:47 <API> well, just to know
131 14:53:50 * bnitz takes action to send announcement
132 14:54:05 <API> what this accessibility test includes?
133 14:54:12 <bnitz> I mentioned here a while back because it seems a few individuals were interested.
134 14:54:15 <API> the desktop? any specific application? gnome2? gnome3?
135 14:54:47 <bnitz> API: All of the validator plugin tests within accerciser plus a few other test primitives, focus traversal.
136 14:55:48 <API> ok, so this mago-based accessibility tests are supposed to be used within accerciser?
137 14:55:55 <bnitz> API: These can be event triggered. (e.g. window:open event triggers accerciser tests, or subset of these on window's children)
138 14:56:36 <bnitz> API:So they're meant to add accessibility test functionality to existing mago based application tests as well as allow accessibility specific tests of the entire desktop.
139 14:57:02 <bnitz> API:No they aren't used within accerciser, they are compatible with accerciser plugins though.
140 14:57:15 <API> bnitz, well I was thinking more about how to install it
141 14:57:15 <bnitz> Specifically the validator plugins.
142 14:57:25 <API> it is documented somehow on that launchpad branch?
143 14:57:34 <API> btw, could you write here the specific link?
144 14:57:38 <bnitz> API:There is still a manual step. No I have to improve docs.
145 14:57:39 <API> for minutes sake
146 14:57:45 <bnitz> https://code.launchpad.net/~brian-nitz/+junk/a11ytesting
147 14:58:01 <API> bnitz, ok thanks
148 14:58:44 <API> bnitz, so in brief, what it is the best way to test those scripts?
149 14:58:48 <bnitz> Need to think about whether this and its dependencies (mago+ldtp) need to go into GNOME git in order to be used or whether launchpads RCS bazaar is OK
150 14:59:51 * mgorse (mgorse@SDF.ORG) has joined #a11y-meeting
151 14:59:52 <bnitz> API:They are meant to be building blocks but there are some example tests included.
152 14:59:56 <API> well, right now the more important is being able to test it
153 15:00:15 <API> "where is the best place to have them" is secondary
154 15:00:26 <API> well, bnitz
155 15:00:33 <bnitz> API:I'm just about to move my build and test environment to 3.0 (which wasn't yet possible on my OS) so I should be able to tell you what works and what doesn't there.
156 15:00:40 <API> sincerely,
157 15:00:48 <API> I think that it would be really valuable a guide
158 15:00:53 <API> although it can be simple
159 15:01:00 <API> something like a README or a INSTALL
160 15:01:07 <API> on the repository
161 15:01:17 <API> in order to know how to test those scripts
162 15:01:32 * bnitz takes an action to doc automated accessibility test README and INSTALL.
163 15:01:42 <API> bnitz, ok thanks
164 15:01:47 <API> well, lets summarize this point
165 15:01:50 <API> 1. Testing
166 15:01:57 <API> in fact
167 15:02:03 <API> 1. Testing GNOME 3.0 status
168 15:02:09 <API> a) a new item was added: themes
169 15:02:20 <API> a.1) check if current a11y themes are working
170 15:02:40 <API> a.2) (secondary) check if it is true that create and improve themes are easier now
171 15:02:46 <API> 2. Automatic testing
172 15:02:59 <API> bnitz tests here: https://code.launchpad.net/~brian-nitz/+junk/a11ytesting
173 15:03:06 <API> it would be good to check them
174 15:03:18 <API> bnitz will work on a guide to newcomers
175 15:03:25 <API> anything else or can we move?
176 15:05:28 <API> its the sound... of the silence
177 15:05:31 <API> ok, lets move
178 15:05:42 <API> I will skip 2
179 15:05:45 <API> and first this:
180 15:05:49 <API> 3. Atk Hackfest updates
181 15:05:51 <API> well,
182 15:06:04 <API> just to say that I have officially announced it
183 15:06:08 <API> we have a place
184 15:06:12 <API> (coruña, spain)
185 15:06:16 <API> and we have date
186 15:06:32 <API> people willing to come
187 15:06:37 <API> please add themselves here
188 15:06:39 <joanie> and a hotel
189 15:06:42 <API> http://live.gnome.org/Hackfests/ATK2011
190 15:06:52 <API> well yes, a recommended hotel
191 15:06:53 <joanie> that is reasonably priced :-)
192 15:06:57 <API> it is near of the office
193 15:07:01 <API> and yes ^^
194 15:07:06 <API> about that
195 15:07:15 <API> I added the prices of this hotel on the hackfest page
196 15:07:15 <joanie> API I think we should add a link to the hotel on the page
197 15:07:47 <API> joanie, hmm I though that we had one
198 15:07:49 * API chekcing
199 15:07:59 <API> there are a google maps link
200 15:08:07 <API> that includes his official page link
201 15:08:08 <joanie> I mean to book reservations
202 15:08:13 <joanie> does it
203 15:08:16 * joanie shuts up
204 15:08:18 <joanie> sorry
205 15:08:59 <API> so people that requires foundation fund
206 15:09:07 <API> should ask the travel committee as usual
207 15:09:08 <li_> do we book the hotel by ourself or gnome does it for us?
208 15:09:30 <API> li_, hmm, a good question
209 15:09:51 <API> I will ask here what people did with the gtk hackfest
210 15:09:57 <API> as we used the same place and the same hotel
211 15:10:21 <API> so action:
212 15:10:38 <API> resolv li_ question "do we book the hotel by ourself or gnome does it for us?"
213 15:10:47 <API> ok, any other question, doubt or comment?
214 15:14:32 <API> well, it seems that no, no questions ;)
215 15:14:48 <API> well, we have a GNOME 3 updates
216 15:14:58 <API> but after all, we covered that with the testing thing
217 15:15:01 <API> ah
218 15:15:06 <API> well just a question
219 15:15:22 <API> li_, are you still working on the "move gail to gtk" ?
220 15:15:34 <li_> yes, just have a commit today
221 15:16:26 <API> there is something similar to a deadline or something?
222 15:16:47 <li_> know we don't
223 15:16:47 <API> the plan is have this thinking on GNOME 3, or it is something not related?
224 15:17:57 <li_> I think maybe we can finish this before GNOME3
225 15:18:17 <mgorse> li_: How much has been done already?
226 15:18:42 <li_> I think 14 widgets has been moved
227 15:18:48 <API> li_, really? you are a really optimistic guy ;)
228 15:18:52 <API> well, forgetting jokes
229 15:18:55 <li_> although some complex widgets are left
230 15:18:57 <API> this seems a lot of work
231 15:19:06 <API> taking into account the little time remaining
232 15:19:33 <li_> I mean we can move all the widgets before gnome3
233 15:19:47 <li_> but improve the code is a long process
234 15:20:30 <li_> just realize that everything will be freezed then
235 15:20:51 <API> li_, ah ok
236 15:20:53 <API> yes
237 15:21:12 <li_> so maybe we can not merge the branch to master...
238 15:21:35 <API> yeah, it makes sense
239 15:21:44 <API> ok li_ thanks for the update
240 15:21:44 <li_> anyway, the work goes well for now
241 15:21:59 <API> well, less that 10 minutes to go, taking into account how popular is this point
242 15:22:07 <API> lets start with the "miscellaneous time"
243 15:22:24 <API> anything else to comment not included on the agenda?
244 15:26:29 * jhernandez (~androirc@212.166.237.51) has joined #a11y-meeting
245 15:27:45 <API> funny, when we have 5 minutes for miscellaneous time, it requires 15 minutes
246 15:27:52 <API> when we have almost 10
247 15:27:58 <API> nobody has something to say
248 15:27:59 <API> ;)
249 15:28:02 <joanie> lol
250 15:28:04 <API> well,
251 15:28:19 <clown> well, now we have 2 ...
252 15:28:20 <API> meeting over
253 15:28:43 <API> no we haven't, people already had the opportunity to talk, they lost it ;)
254 15:28:43 * clown thanks the chair(s) for chairing.
255 15:28:45 <API> meeting over
256 15:28:47 <API> thatnks
257 15:28:49 <API> argh
258 15:28:52 <API> thanks to be here
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