http://www.jwz.org/hacks/irc2html.pl made a much prettier HTML log (hosted on my web serve), but I couldn't figure out an easy way to get it on the wiki. Forunately MoinMoin has built-in IRC log parsing.

IRC Log for 0.10.0 Developer Meeting

13:00 @boyd couple more minutes and we'll be underway with the mtg.
13:00 -!- segphault [~segphault@adsl-67-123-205-241.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net] has joined #tomboy
13:01 -!- You're now known as sandy
13:01 @boyd welcome to the meeting everyone! :)
13:02 @boyd hopefully orph joins us shortly
13:04 @boyd well, first off, congratulations everyone for helping make tomboy 0.8 a success!
13:04 @boyd we gained an awesome new maintainer (sandy) !!!
13:04 @sandy lots of new contributors, too
13:04 @sandy mw, Jc2k, etc
13:04 @boyd learned that we shouldn't start a huge feature too late in the cycle
13:05 @sandy :-/
13:05 @boyd but sandy still pulled it off!!
13:05 -!- seiflotfy [~seif@P5118.pallas.wh.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #tomboy
13:05 @boyd any other "success stories" anyone wants to share?
13:05 seiflotfy well gimmie is about to be able to support facebook
13:05 seiflotfy stil lworkign on it
13:05 seiflotfy i get the list of contacts
13:05 @sandy for Tomboy... ;-)
13:05 seiflotfy however i have to login on gimmie start
13:05 -!- CIA-1 [~CIA@208.69.182.149] has joined #tomboy
13:06 seiflotfy nope
13:06 seiflotfy hehehehe
13:06 @boyd heh
13:06 @sandy congratulations, though
13:06 seiflotfy thx
13:06 @boyd okay ... well, any other things we could improve on ... for the development process this time vs. 0.8?
13:06 @boyd ...besides make sure to start a big feature early
13:07 @sandy I think looking at the GNOME schedule like we're doing
13:07 @sandy helps us thiknk about "do we really have time to finish this feature"
13:07 @sandy or at least, by when should we have this feature "good enough" that it's just in bug fix mode
13:07 @boyd yeah, let's not start something at the beginning of december ...
13:07 @boyd or even during thanksgiving
13:08 @boyd at least not something as big as sync
13:08 @sandy right
13:08 @boyd I know that I didn't have/make as much time for bugfixing as I should have this time around
13:08 * boyd wonders what our current bug count is at right now
13:08 @sandy yeah, and it's hard to focus on bugfixing when you're still cleaning up a major feature
13:08 @boyd 184 open tomboy bugs right now
13:09 @boyd I think when we released 0.6, we were around 100
13:09 @sandy I think it's likely that we'll have a few 0.8.x releases
13:09 @boyd we ought to build a list of the ones we ought to try to fix for 0.8.x
13:09 @boyd and get them knocked out quickly if we can
13:09 @boyd so we can move on
13:09 @sandy good idea
13:10 @boyd ...not necessarily right now, but as a task leading out of this mtg., we ought to build the list
13:10 @sandy and we should do the same thing at the end of the cycle, maybe
13:10 -!- seiflotfy [~seif@P5118.pallas.wh.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
13:10 @sandy to help us focus on bugfixing
13:11 @boyd yeah, perhaps just have a quick bug pow-wow near the end of dec (before feature freeze)
13:11 @boyd ...or would we want to hold it after feature freeze?
13:11 @sandy either way
13:11 * sandy takes note of action items
13:11 @boyd :)
13:12 @boyd so any other "process" improvements?
13:12 Jc2k you should have a reward for contributors to your dbus code.
13:12 @boyd heh
13:12 * sandy gives Jc2k a cookie
13:12 @sandy branching for tomboy sync was a bad idea
13:12 Jc2k :D
13:13 @boyd sandy: yeah, that kind of just muddied the water
13:13 @sandy we should jsut work on trunk, and not be afraid to remove stuff later if it doesn't work out
13:13 @boyd that works for me as long as we leave time to make sure our removal doesn't bust things
13:13 @sandy agreed
13:14 @boyd and somehow someone should invent more time in the day so I can hack more on tomboy
13:14 @boyd ...it doesn't help to have work assignments change all the time :-\
13:14 Jc2k polyphasic sleep?
13:14 @boyd I didn't have as much time for 0.8 vs. 0.6
13:14 @boyd but that comes and goes
13:15 @sandy right
13:15 @sandy so since we're doing features earlier, that shouldn't be too big a deal
13:15 @boyd so anyone want to push for a specific bug to be fixed right away?
13:15 @sandy well, I don't have the number off hand, but there's a bug dealing with title restrictions
13:15 Jc2k the remainding issues in note formatting when using SetContentXml
13:16 @boyd I can see what's on Jc2k's mind :)
13:16 Jc2k :D
13:16 @sandy Jc2k: were there any visible issues left?
13:16 Jc2k i cant remember the details, but you left the bug open
13:16 Jc2k IIRC, it didnt create links properly?
13:16 @sandy no, the bug left is very minor
13:17 Jc2k oh
13:17 Jc2k :)
13:17 @sandy an extraneous tag
13:17 Jc2k apologies, i must have misread
13:17 @boyd note titles do need to be fixed up
13:17 @sandy for 0.10.0
13:17 @boyd I never hit the problem myself, but when trying the scenario, it's pretty bad
13:18 @sandy I think auto-updating of links is a bad behavior, personally
13:18 @sandy but we can discuss it in the bug, I guess?
13:18 @boyd yeah
13:18 @sandy either way, the current situation keeps hurting our users
13:18 @boyd agreed
13:18 @boyd http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=350990
13:18 @boyd that's the bug
13:18 @boyd I agree, it ought to be fixed asap!
13:19 @sandy probably can't do that for 0.8.x, though
13:19 @boyd yeah, it's gonna be a behavior/feature change
13:19 @boyd I'm guessing
13:19 @boyd why is this one marked as a blocker? http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=415606 (too much distance between lines in bulleted list)
13:19 @sandy hmm
13:20 @sandy maybe the reporter did that?
13:20 -!- everaldo [~everaldo@189-29-208-8-nd.cpe.vivax.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
13:20 -!- orph [~agraveley@little-black-box.vmware.com] has joined #tomboy
13:20 @boyd not even critical imo, but we can fix that easily enough
13:20 @sandy yup
13:20 @boyd hey orph! we're just talking abt. what our most annoying bugs are ... that we should fix soon before diving into new features
13:21 -!- mchasal [~mchasal@bi-02pt1.bluebird.ibm.com] has quit [Read error: 78 (Connection timed out)]
13:21 @boyd so basically the ones related to changing the title let's get them fixed: #250990 & #444685
13:21 @sandy there is a sync bug I should get for 0.8.x...doesn't need to be discussed
13:22 @boyd k
13:22 @boyd mark that one down
13:22 @sandy yeah
13:22 @boyd what abt. the "help kill libegg" one?
13:22 @sandy well, that will take some work
13:22 @boyd not really a big bug I guess
13:22 @sandy we would have to switch to using gtkstatusicon
13:22 @sandy which has less features than libegg
13:22 @sandy because it's not a widget
13:22 @boyd ah
13:22 @sandy no middle-click, for example
13:23 @sandy I'd be interested in working on that if I have time
13:23 @boyd well, a more important annoyance is the Mono.Addins not always loading at startup
13:23 @boyd let's put the libegg thing down but prob. just something to look at if we get to it
13:23 @sandy is there a bug for that?
13:24 @boyd I don't think there's a mono.addins bug reported
13:24 @boyd I'm just concerned there will be
13:24 @sandy I'm not familiar with that problem
13:24 @boyd I haven't really tested all the upgrading problems
13:24 @boyd s/problems/scenarios
13:24 @boyd I know that when I'm building different version of tomboy and running them, occasionally, the addins don't load
13:24 orph oh crap. i misread the time of the meeting as 2pm. sorry dudes. good thing i showed up "early" :)
13:25 @boyd and I have to restart tomboy a couple times before addins start working
13:25 @sandy oh, that's true
13:25 @boyd orph: no worries, glad you're here!
13:25 @boyd sandy: I just wonder if anyone who upgrades from 0.6.x -> 0.8 will hit that issue
13:25 @boyd I can ask our QA guy to test that one out (write that down as an action item for me) :)
13:25 @sandy okay, so that needs to be tested
13:26 @boyd if it's a problem, it ought to be added to the things to take care of right awy
13:26 @sandy agreed
13:26 @sandy any other bugs to discuss?
13:26 @boyd prob. not anything needed immediately
13:26 @sandy alright, features!
13:27 * Jc2k hands out propaganda
13:27 @boyd open the flood-gates
13:27 @sandy boyd: what are you think about Tasks?
13:27 @sandy we've been getting some nice bug reports
13:27 @boyd yeah, it's been good feedback
13:27 @sandy and the recent notes menu integration is really cool
13:27 @sandy I think Tasks has legs, and makes sense in Tomboy
13:28 @sandy but I haven't used it much
13:28 @boyd one thing I noticed watching someone the other day ...
13:28 @boyd it would be really good to add something to the menu so that ...
13:28 @boyd a user could just add a simple task right then and there in the menu
13:28 @boyd instead of having to pop open a window/etc. to doit
13:28 @boyd you know, when you just want to grab a piece of paper and jot it down? ... as a task?
13:29 @sandy interesting
13:29 @boyd you don't want to have to click all over the place
13:29 orph ya
13:29 @boyd same thing might be true for a note actually
13:29 @sandy so we kind of have two apps in one
13:29 @sandy with good integration between them
13:29 @boyd kinda
13:29 orph what about creating a new note and prefixing the name with TODO:
13:29 orph (btw, i think that's how all TODOs should work)
13:29 @boyd orph: possibly
13:30 @sandy I think the issue is people like to make todo lists in their notes, right?
13:30 @sandy that's reallyt he problem we're trying to solve?
13:30 @boyd I know that a lot of people have said that they want a way to be taking meeting notes and then just create todo items directly inline with their meeting notes
13:30 Jc2k there was a site that used a note to generate several tasks... i linked sandy and boyd
13:30 -!- mchasal [~mchasal@bi-02pt1.bluebird.ibm.com] has joined #tomboy
13:30 orph you could even have a New TODO Note in the menu, which would make it even easier, and would just create a new note named "TODO: Timestamp"
13:30 @boyd the whole tasks/todo idea definitely needs to be explored more
13:31 @boyd orph: have you been able to try out the tasks addin that's currently in svn trunk?
13:31 orph creating todo lists in notes can be handled by making todo items into notes, and using not linking to list them out in other notes.
13:31 orph the same way the rest of tomboy works
13:32 @boyd orph: ah! I like that idea!
13:32 @sandy yeah, but then it's hard to find your todos
13:32 @boyd a todo is essentially a special kind of note
13:32 orph maybe you even show a lil checkbox next to the link
13:32 @sandy and whether or not they're completed
13:32 orph and cross out the link text when the todo is completed
13:32 @boyd hehe, showing checkboxes next to the link! I'll give someone a sweet prize if they can get that working well!
13:32 @sandy you tried that already, right?
13:33 @boyd yeah, but I'm no gtk expert either
13:33 orph no one is ;)
13:33 @boyd kudos to anyone who braves the TextIter & TextBuffer!
13:33 @boyd what do you guys think about storing tasks in EDS?
13:33 orph i think it's a waste of time.
13:33 @boyd good? bad? use it optionally? ?
13:34 Jc2k i think if the user wants it, they need to come to #conduit..
13:34 @sandy as part of GNOME, there will be yelling if we don't use EDS
13:34 @boyd some people have said how tomboy should just expose creating and displaying eds tasks
13:34 * sandy doesn't use Evo and doesn't care about EDS, personally
13:34 Jc2k eh
13:34 @boyd I've been opposed to it at first
13:34 orph no one cares about EDS
13:34 Eimi Personally, I won't use it until it's in EDS. I simply have too much stored there to start duplicating.
13:35 Jc2k if you are going to say that, why dont you store tomboy notes in Evo. it has a memo facility..
13:35 @sandy well, the memo is a joke
13:35 orph Eimi: well, i don't think anyone is proposing importing all the existing EDS todo items as tomboy todos.
13:35 @sandy whereas the tasks are more complete
13:36 maxasdf orph: syncing will be an issue though.
13:36 @boyd I think the real key is that the entire desktop needs ... some centralized place to store stuff like this. eds happens to be like that to a degree
13:36 @boyd tomboy should be one place people can create tasks
13:36 @boyd there ought to be a nice widget too
13:36 kurros the clock-applet uses EDS, i think thats one visible place why users my want it, but between sync and having the tomboy applet not too far away i'm not sure if its as important
13:36 @boyd and maybe a full-on tasks application "pimlico" or whatever it is
13:36 Eimi My point is merely that todos that exist outside of EDS don't get sync'd to my palm, where the rest of the todos live, and therefore are way too likely to be forgotten for me to use them. I may not be typical in that way, of course.
13:36 @boyd and they could all tie back into eds
13:37 Jc2k Eimi: thats where #conduit comes in. and it will be more than the palm users that benefit.
13:37 kurros I think Conduit might help there
13:37 orph the other thing is how much UI do you want to add to tomboy tasks? Evo tasks have a bunch of ui for %complete and due dates etc
13:37 @boyd orph: I think we need to keep it simple
13:37 -!- everaldo [~everaldo@189-29-208-8-nd.cpe.vivax.com.br] has joined #tomboy
13:37 Jc2k i think if you overload it, it would suck.
13:37 @sandy in a TODO note...have "open task in Evo" link at bottom
13:37 orph i think if you introduce todos in tomboy, you make them more like notes and lightweight, and less like calendar todo tasks. more GTD-style.
13:37 @sandy or something like that
13:38 Jc2k orph: agree 100%
13:38 @boyd orph: I agree as well
13:38 @boyd I just know we'll have a better "win" if we satisfy people who actually do use evo already
13:38 @sandy so if a Tomboy TODO automatically maps to an EDS task, you can edit those details in an app that's designed for it
13:38 maxasdf Maybe have a very basic todo note in tomboy + open task in evo if you really want all that % completed etc
13:38 orph so that's a good reason to avoid EDS, since you don't want to get roped into "heavy" tasks
13:38 @boyd all we realy have to do is abstract the todo storage
13:38 @boyd and let users decide
13:38 @boyd we don't even have to write the eds part
13:38 Jc2k sandy: if conduit is a blessed dep that takes about 4 lines of code
13:39 @boyd someone who cares could doit ;)
13:39 orph oh oh
13:39 orph you could have Evo tasks link like tomboy notes, so if you type the task name, it'd link to the evo task
13:40 @boyd sure
13:40 @sandy ah, and have a link facility that creats EDS tasks?
13:40 orph but that could be separate from tomboy todo items.
13:40 @sandy like our note link button
13:40 orph sandy: no. just open them in evo.
13:40 @sandy I mean for task creation
13:41 @sandy if you want to create your task in tomboy
13:41 orph then you name a note "TODO: foo" :)
13:41 orph why would you create an evo task in tomboy? can you create an evo task in openoffice?
13:41 maxasdf how about right click + create task in evo after that?
13:42 @sandy orph: to get it in your palm, to show it in your clock/cal applet, to see it in evo...
13:42 maxasdf otherwise all todo: ... would turn up in evo.
13:42 maxasdf which might also be confusing if people just type down a long list of todos in a note.
13:43 orph sandy: see what in Evo? and Palm tasks are heavy weight just like evo tasks.
13:43 Jc2k Conduit would get them into Evo and on to Palm's, Windows Mobile, and Symbian. We could even let their be filters that the user can set so that only certain tasks make this journey.
13:43 @boyd orph: you never answered my question btw....have you tried out the tasks stuff in svn trunk?
13:44 orph i think there should be a clear separation from heavy "tasks" and light-weight "todos". tomboy should do todos, and maybe just link to tasks.
13:44 orph boyd: nope :)
13:44 @boyd orph: ???!!!! ;)
13:44 * Jc2k is nodding in the direction of orph
13:44 orph i hate the menu thing
13:44 @boyd heh
13:45 @boyd in any case, it appears that we SHOULD keep the tasks ... or the idea of including todos/tasks in tomboy ...
13:45 @boyd we can have more todo-specific conversations later ... right?
13:45 orph i just want my list of notes. the standard note list should have a different icon for TODO notes, or maybe a checkbox in the note menu itself
13:46 @boyd orph: the todos in the menu is eventually meant to be configurable ... i.e., show it or not
13:46 orph i think todos should just be a flavor of note, one that means it can be "completed"
13:46 orph anything else has really weird Evo crossover conflicts.
13:46 @boyd orph: here's where I think that might break down ... if you have to create a new note/separate window for every todo ...
13:47 orph not to mention that i haven't run evo in like 2 years :)
13:47 @boyd if you're taking meeting notes and writing down a bunch of todo items
13:47 @boyd you want them all in the same note
13:47 @boyd not a bunch of different windows
13:47 @boyd you know, like a bulleted list?
13:47 orph well in that case you certainly don't want each one to be an Evo task
13:48 @boyd I guess if you needed to make more detailed notes about the todo, you could then have it create/open a real todo-style note
13:48 orph you could have a shortcut for it
13:48 @boyd yeah, I'm not referring to evo at all
13:48 @boyd I could care less about it
13:48 orph like [] at the start of a line creates an auto-link todo item
13:48 maxasdf boyd: can't we create todos as links without opening the linked note. So one could keep typing and maybe never create that note?
13:48 @boyd maxasdf: absolutely!
13:48 orph clicking it would open a new todo note
13:49 @boyd orph: perfect! :)
13:49 @boyd let's morph what we currently have to do this
13:49 orph oh man, that would be sexy
13:49 @boyd and we'll leave the whole evo thing out for now ... and Jc2k can work his magic of getting them into evo for everyone ;)
13:50 maxasdf would be a cool addin.
13:50 @sandy intresting idea to make Conduit a dependency of Tomboy, too
13:50 * Jc2k dances excitedly
13:50 orph eek
13:50 @boyd sandy: not a dep of tomboy
13:50 @sandy well, I meant optional
13:50 @boyd maybe of the tasks-evo-addin
13:50 @sandy fair enough
13:50 @boyd okay then...next? Tagging!!!! ???
13:51 orph heh
13:51 @sandy I actually liked the tagging ui in each note
13:51 * orph needs coffee. back in 5.
13:51 @boyd sandy: yeah, I like it there too. I think it just needs a little more love
13:52 @boyd the UI in the search window was horrible IMO
13:52 @boyd but we still ought to have something in there
13:52 @sandy yeah
13:52 @boyd when we first started looking into tagging ... the main motivation, at least for me, was to build a solution for notebooks
13:52 @boyd i.e, I want to have a "Personal" notebook
13:52 @boyd or a "Work" notebook
13:52 @boyd or a "Project A" and a "Project B" notebook
13:53 Jc2k f-spot has a handy keyboard shortcut for attaching tags without the mouse. i think it would be good to have that same idea, if not the same shortcut..
13:53 @sandy yeah, categorization of some sort is necessary the more I think about it
13:53 @sandy especially wrt sync
13:53 @boyd so that I could go into "Project A"-mode and all the notes I see, search, create...go into my project a notebook
13:53 @boyd well, I think we can do categorization with tags
13:54 @boyd but it would be nice to figure out an easy way to do this visually
13:54 @boyd so the user doesn't just have to come up with it themselves
13:54 @boyd something like f-spot (like Jc2k mentioned) might work, though I still haven't been sold on the way it works
13:54 @sandy boyd: so you're saying a notebook-like UI?
13:54 @sandy instead of the user manually tagging?
13:55 @sandy a sort of suggested use of tags?
13:55 @boyd sandy: that'd be one option
13:55 -!- Demitar [~demitar@c-212-031-182-147.cust.broadway.se] has joined #tomboy
13:55 Jc2k the shortcut was more for power users, rather than the only way to tag.
13:55 @boyd at least for the search window
13:55 @boyd in the search window, some of the main tags should be visible on the left/right-hand side or something (optionall)
13:55 @boyd (optionally)
13:56 @boyd and the user could quickly filter their list by selecting a tag
13:56 @sandy boyd: do you have a screenshot of the work you were doing?
13:56 @sandy the epiphany-style UI?
13:56 @boyd I thought I did somewhere
13:56 @boyd maybe not
13:56 Eimi Should it be possible to have more than one note with the same title, but different tags? (For instance, notes named "Project Summary" for both Project A and Project B)
13:56 @boyd Eimi: not sure
13:56 @boyd Eimi: though that's a good point
13:56 @sandy everybody: It looks like we'll be running later than an hour...I will be posting an IRC log for anyone who is concerned about missing anything
13:56 Jc2k no it shouldnt, because then they are no longer tags
13:57 @boyd yeah, I don't really like making tags part of the title
13:57 @boyd but that's an interesting point anyhow
13:57 Eimi I can see good points for both ways (well, actually I can see bad points for both ways).
13:57 @sandy Eimi: that sounds like something heavier than tags
13:57 @boyd tomboy still has to remain as easy as it has always been ... so that someone who doesn't use tags isn't pestered by their existence
13:58 * sandy brainstorms
13:58 @boyd I've seen some os x note-taking apps that I like a lot
13:58 @sandy maybe in the recent notes menu, you can add "notebook" entries for specified tags?
13:58 @sandy or maybe that sort of UI should only be in the Search window...
13:59 @sandy but it might be neat to have quick access to all notes tagged "Work"
13:59 @boyd or ... you could move tomboy into a "Work" mode?
13:59 @boyd so that all notes you see/create automatically get the "Work" tag applied?
13:59 @sandy yeah, that is more like the notebook idea
13:59 Jc2k i like that idea
13:59 @sandy modes are tricky
13:59 Jc2k hmm
14:00 @sandy especially for something like Tomboy, which eschews modes in so many ways
14:00 @boyd just an idea ;)
14:00 @sandy oh, I think it's a good idea
14:00 Jc2k perhaps that can be an addin?
14:00 @boyd heh
14:00 @sandy just not sure how to do that in the UI
14:00 Jc2k rather than forcing it on everyone?
14:00 @boyd Jc2k: yeah, definitely
14:01 @boyd I think when you put tomboy into a specific tag "mode", you'd have to conscientiously (sp?) do so
14:01 @sandy and how would you know you're in a mode?
14:01 @boyd it'd be apparent in the main menu, each note window, and the search window
14:01 @boyd maybe a colored menuitem in the menu, a bar in the note, a toggled button in the search window
14:01 @boyd I think there are ways
14:02 @sandy but see, at that level, I think you almost want to be able to switch between entirely different note collections
14:02 @boyd we could definitely experiment with it
14:02 @boyd sandy: :)
14:02 Eimi Presumably when you're in a mode, you can still link to notes that don't have that tag...even though they don't show up in the lists
14:02 @sandy different Tomboy instances for each notebook
14:03 Jc2k sandy: ouch for conduit :P
14:03 @sandy Eimi: that's a very interesting questionto consider
14:03 Jc2k ouch for dbus..
14:03 @boyd sandy: one drawback (could just be on implementation) is ... it'd possibly be more difficult to link to notes in multiple collections
14:03 @sandy well, maybe each Tomboy applet talks to a tomboy singleton via dbus...
14:03 @boyd I don't like the idea of different collections
14:03 @sandy who know