http://www.jwz.org/hacks/irc2html.pl made a much prettier HTML log (hosted on my web serve), but I couldn't figure out an easy way to get it on the wiki. Forunately MoinMoin has built-in IRC log parsing.
IRC Log for 0.10.0 Developer Meeting
| 13:00 | @boyd | couple more minutes and we'll be underway with the mtg. |
| 13:00 | -!- | segphault [~segphault@adsl-67-123-205-241.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net] has joined #tomboy |
| 13:01 | -!- | You're now known as sandy |
| 13:01 | @boyd | welcome to the meeting everyone! :) |
| 13:02 | @boyd | hopefully orph joins us shortly |
| 13:04 | @boyd | well, first off, congratulations everyone for helping make tomboy 0.8 a success! |
| 13:04 | @boyd | we gained an awesome new maintainer (sandy) !!! |
| 13:04 | @sandy | lots of new contributors, too |
| 13:04 | @sandy | mw, Jc2k, etc |
| 13:04 | @boyd | learned that we shouldn't start a huge feature too late in the cycle |
| 13:05 | @sandy | :-/ |
| 13:05 | @boyd | but sandy still pulled it off!! |
| 13:05 | -!- | seiflotfy [~seif@P5118.pallas.wh.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #tomboy |
| 13:05 | @boyd | any other "success stories" anyone wants to share? |
| 13:05 | seiflotfy | well gimmie is about to be able to support facebook |
| 13:05 | seiflotfy | stil lworkign on it |
| 13:05 | seiflotfy | i get the list of contacts |
| 13:05 | @sandy | for Tomboy... ;-) |
| 13:05 | seiflotfy | however i have to login on gimmie start |
| 13:05 | -!- | CIA-1 [~CIA@208.69.182.149] has joined #tomboy |
| 13:06 | seiflotfy | nope |
| 13:06 | seiflotfy | hehehehe |
| 13:06 | @boyd | heh |
| 13:06 | @sandy | congratulations, though |
| 13:06 | seiflotfy | thx |
| 13:06 | @boyd | okay ... well, any other things we could improve on ... for the development process this time vs. 0.8? |
| 13:06 | @boyd | ...besides make sure to start a big feature early |
| 13:07 | @sandy | I think looking at the GNOME schedule like we're doing |
| 13:07 | @sandy | helps us thiknk about "do we really have time to finish this feature" |
| 13:07 | @sandy | or at least, by when should we have this feature "good enough" that it's just in bug fix mode |
| 13:07 | @boyd | yeah, let's not start something at the beginning of december ... |
| 13:07 | @boyd | or even during thanksgiving |
| 13:08 | @boyd | at least not something as big as sync |
| 13:08 | @sandy | right |
| 13:08 | @boyd | I know that I didn't have/make as much time for bugfixing as I should have this time around |
| 13:08 | * | boyd wonders what our current bug count is at right now |
| 13:08 | @sandy | yeah, and it's hard to focus on bugfixing when you're still cleaning up a major feature |
| 13:08 | @boyd | 184 open tomboy bugs right now |
| 13:09 | @boyd | I think when we released 0.6, we were around 100 |
| 13:09 | @sandy | I think it's likely that we'll have a few 0.8.x releases |
| 13:09 | @boyd | we ought to build a list of the ones we ought to try to fix for 0.8.x |
| 13:09 | @boyd | and get them knocked out quickly if we can |
| 13:09 | @boyd | so we can move on |
| 13:09 | @sandy | good idea |
| 13:10 | @boyd | ...not necessarily right now, but as a task leading out of this mtg., we ought to build the list |
| 13:10 | @sandy | and we should do the same thing at the end of the cycle, maybe |
| 13:10 | -!- | seiflotfy [~seif@P5118.pallas.wh.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] |
| 13:10 | @sandy | to help us focus on bugfixing |
| 13:11 | @boyd | yeah, perhaps just have a quick bug pow-wow near the end of dec (before feature freeze) |
| 13:11 | @boyd | ...or would we want to hold it after feature freeze? |
| 13:11 | @sandy | either way |
| 13:11 | * | sandy takes note of action items |
| 13:11 | @boyd | :) |
| 13:12 | @boyd | so any other "process" improvements? |
| 13:12 | Jc2k | you should have a reward for contributors to your dbus code. |
| 13:12 | @boyd | heh |
| 13:12 | * | sandy gives Jc2k a cookie |
| 13:12 | @sandy | branching for tomboy sync was a bad idea |
| 13:12 | Jc2k | :D |
| 13:13 | @boyd | sandy: yeah, that kind of just muddied the water |
| 13:13 | @sandy | we should jsut work on trunk, and not be afraid to remove stuff later if it doesn't work out |
| 13:13 | @boyd | that works for me as long as we leave time to make sure our removal doesn't bust things |
| 13:13 | @sandy | agreed |
| 13:14 | @boyd | and somehow someone should invent more time in the day so I can hack more on tomboy |
| 13:14 | @boyd | ...it doesn't help to have work assignments change all the time :-\ |
| 13:14 | Jc2k | polyphasic sleep? |
| 13:14 | @boyd | I didn't have as much time for 0.8 vs. 0.6 |
| 13:14 | @boyd | but that comes and goes |
| 13:15 | @sandy | right |
| 13:15 | @sandy | so since we're doing features earlier, that shouldn't be too big a deal |
| 13:15 | @boyd | so anyone want to push for a specific bug to be fixed right away? |
| 13:15 | @sandy | well, I don't have the number off hand, but there's a bug dealing with title restrictions |
| 13:15 | Jc2k | the remainding issues in note formatting when using SetContentXml |
| 13:16 | @boyd | I can see what's on Jc2k's mind :) |
| 13:16 | Jc2k | :D |
| 13:16 | @sandy | Jc2k: were there any visible issues left? |
| 13:16 | Jc2k | i cant remember the details, but you left the bug open |
| 13:16 | Jc2k | IIRC, it didnt create links properly? |
| 13:16 | @sandy | no, the bug left is very minor |
| 13:17 | Jc2k | oh |
| 13:17 | Jc2k | :) |
| 13:17 | @sandy | an extraneous tag |
| 13:17 | Jc2k | apologies, i must have misread |
| 13:17 | @boyd | note titles do need to be fixed up |
| 13:17 | @sandy | for 0.10.0 |
| 13:17 | @boyd | I never hit the problem myself, but when trying the scenario, it's pretty bad |
| 13:18 | @sandy | I think auto-updating of links is a bad behavior, personally |
| 13:18 | @sandy | but we can discuss it in the bug, I guess? |
| 13:18 | @boyd | yeah |
| 13:18 | @sandy | either way, the current situation keeps hurting our users |
| 13:18 | @boyd | agreed |
| 13:18 | @boyd | http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=350990 |
| 13:18 | @boyd | that's the bug |
| 13:18 | @boyd | I agree, it ought to be fixed asap! |
| 13:19 | @sandy | probably can't do that for 0.8.x, though |
| 13:19 | @boyd | yeah, it's gonna be a behavior/feature change |
| 13:19 | @boyd | I'm guessing |
| 13:19 | @boyd | why is this one marked as a blocker? http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=415606 (too much distance between lines in bulleted list) |
| 13:19 | @sandy | hmm |
| 13:20 | @sandy | maybe the reporter did that? |
| 13:20 | -!- | everaldo [~everaldo@189-29-208-8-nd.cpe.vivax.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] |
| 13:20 | -!- | orph [~agraveley@little-black-box.vmware.com] has joined #tomboy |
| 13:20 | @boyd | not even critical imo, but we can fix that easily enough |
| 13:20 | @sandy | yup |
| 13:20 | @boyd | hey orph! we're just talking abt. what our most annoying bugs are ... that we should fix soon before diving into new features |
| 13:21 | -!- | mchasal [~mchasal@bi-02pt1.bluebird.ibm.com] has quit [Read error: 78 (Connection timed out)] |
| 13:21 | @boyd | so basically the ones related to changing the title let's get them fixed: #250990 & #444685 |
| 13:21 | @sandy | there is a sync bug I should get for 0.8.x...doesn't need to be discussed |
| 13:22 | @boyd | k |
| 13:22 | @boyd | mark that one down |
| 13:22 | @sandy | yeah |
| 13:22 | @boyd | what abt. the "help kill libegg" one? |
| 13:22 | @sandy | well, that will take some work |
| 13:22 | @boyd | not really a big bug I guess |
| 13:22 | @sandy | we would have to switch to using gtkstatusicon |
| 13:22 | @sandy | which has less features than libegg |
| 13:22 | @sandy | because it's not a widget |
| 13:22 | @boyd | ah |
| 13:22 | @sandy | no middle-click, for example |
| 13:23 | @sandy | I'd be interested in working on that if I have time |
| 13:23 | @boyd | well, a more important annoyance is the Mono.Addins not always loading at startup |
| 13:23 | @boyd | let's put the libegg thing down but prob. just something to look at if we get to it |
| 13:23 | @sandy | is there a bug for that? |
| 13:24 | @boyd | I don't think there's a mono.addins bug reported |
| 13:24 | @boyd | I'm just concerned there will be |
| 13:24 | @sandy | I'm not familiar with that problem |
| 13:24 | @boyd | I haven't really tested all the upgrading problems |
| 13:24 | @boyd | s/problems/scenarios |
| 13:24 | @boyd | I know that when I'm building different version of tomboy and running them, occasionally, the addins don't load |
| 13:24 | orph | oh crap. i misread the time of the meeting as 2pm. sorry dudes. good thing i showed up "early" :) |
| 13:25 | @boyd | and I have to restart tomboy a couple times before addins start working |
| 13:25 | @sandy | oh, that's true |
| 13:25 | @boyd | orph: no worries, glad you're here! |
| 13:25 | @boyd | sandy: I just wonder if anyone who upgrades from 0.6.x -> 0.8 will hit that issue |
| 13:25 | @boyd | I can ask our QA guy to test that one out (write that down as an action item for me) :) |
| 13:25 | @sandy | okay, so that needs to be tested |
| 13:26 | @boyd | if it's a problem, it ought to be added to the things to take care of right awy |
| 13:26 | @sandy | agreed |
| 13:26 | @sandy | any other bugs to discuss? |
| 13:26 | @boyd | prob. not anything needed immediately |
| 13:26 | @sandy | alright, features! |
| 13:27 | * | Jc2k hands out propaganda |
| 13:27 | @boyd | open the flood-gates |
| 13:27 | @sandy | boyd: what are you think about Tasks? |
| 13:27 | @sandy | we've been getting some nice bug reports |
| 13:27 | @boyd | yeah, it's been good feedback |
| 13:27 | @sandy | and the recent notes menu integration is really cool |
| 13:27 | @sandy | I think Tasks has legs, and makes sense in Tomboy |
| 13:28 | @sandy | but I haven't used it much |
| 13:28 | @boyd | one thing I noticed watching someone the other day ... |
| 13:28 | @boyd | it would be really good to add something to the menu so that ... |
| 13:28 | @boyd | a user could just add a simple task right then and there in the menu |
| 13:28 | @boyd | instead of having to pop open a window/etc. to doit |
| 13:28 | @boyd | you know, when you just want to grab a piece of paper and jot it down? ... as a task? |
| 13:29 | @sandy | interesting |
| 13:29 | @boyd | you don't want to have to click all over the place |
| 13:29 | orph | ya |
| 13:29 | @boyd | same thing might be true for a note actually |
| 13:29 | @sandy | so we kind of have two apps in one |
| 13:29 | @sandy | with good integration between them |
| 13:29 | @boyd | kinda |
| 13:29 | orph | what about creating a new note and prefixing the name with TODO: |
| 13:29 | orph | (btw, i think that's how all TODOs should work) |
| 13:29 | @boyd | orph: possibly |
| 13:30 | @sandy | I think the issue is people like to make todo lists in their notes, right? |
| 13:30 | @sandy | that's reallyt he problem we're trying to solve? |
| 13:30 | @boyd | I know that a lot of people have said that they want a way to be taking meeting notes and then just create todo items directly inline with their meeting notes |
| 13:30 | Jc2k | there was a site that used a note to generate several tasks... i linked sandy and boyd |
| 13:30 | -!- | mchasal [~mchasal@bi-02pt1.bluebird.ibm.com] has joined #tomboy |
| 13:30 | orph | you could even have a New TODO Note in the menu, which would make it even easier, and would just create a new note named "TODO: Timestamp" |
| 13:30 | @boyd | the whole tasks/todo idea definitely needs to be explored more |
| 13:31 | @boyd | orph: have you been able to try out the tasks addin that's currently in svn trunk? |
| 13:31 | orph | creating todo lists in notes can be handled by making todo items into notes, and using not linking to list them out in other notes. |
| 13:31 | orph | the same way the rest of tomboy works |
| 13:32 | @boyd | orph: ah! I like that idea! |
| 13:32 | @sandy | yeah, but then it's hard to find your todos |
| 13:32 | @boyd | a todo is essentially a special kind of note |
| 13:32 | orph | maybe you even show a lil checkbox next to the link |
| 13:32 | @sandy | and whether or not they're completed |
| 13:32 | orph | and cross out the link text when the todo is completed |
| 13:32 | @boyd | hehe, showing checkboxes next to the link! I'll give someone a sweet prize if they can get that working well! |
| 13:32 | @sandy | you tried that already, right? |
| 13:33 | @boyd | yeah, but I'm no gtk expert either |
| 13:33 | orph | no one is ;) |
| 13:33 | @boyd | kudos to anyone who braves the TextIter & TextBuffer! |
| 13:33 | @boyd | what do you guys think about storing tasks in EDS? |
| 13:33 | orph | i think it's a waste of time. |
| 13:33 | @boyd | good? bad? use it optionally? ? |
| 13:34 | Jc2k | i think if the user wants it, they need to come to #conduit.. |
| 13:34 | @sandy | as part of GNOME, there will be yelling if we don't use EDS |
| 13:34 | @boyd | some people have said how tomboy should just expose creating and displaying eds tasks |
| 13:34 | * | sandy doesn't use Evo and doesn't care about EDS, personally |
| 13:34 | Jc2k | eh |
| 13:34 | @boyd | I've been opposed to it at first |
| 13:34 | orph | no one cares about EDS |
| 13:34 | Eimi | Personally, I won't use it until it's in EDS. I simply have too much stored there to start duplicating. |
| 13:35 | Jc2k | if you are going to say that, why dont you store tomboy notes in Evo. it has a memo facility.. |
| 13:35 | @sandy | well, the memo is a joke |
| 13:35 | orph | Eimi: well, i don't think anyone is proposing importing all the existing EDS todo items as tomboy todos. |
| 13:35 | @sandy | whereas the tasks are more complete |
| 13:36 | maxasdf | orph: syncing will be an issue though. |
| 13:36 | @boyd | I think the real key is that the entire desktop needs ... some centralized place to store stuff like this. eds happens to be like that to a degree |
| 13:36 | @boyd | tomboy should be one place people can create tasks |
| 13:36 | @boyd | there ought to be a nice widget too |
| 13:36 | kurros | the clock-applet uses EDS, i think thats one visible place why users my want it, but between sync and having the tomboy applet not too far away i'm not sure if its as important |
| 13:36 | @boyd | and maybe a full-on tasks application "pimlico" or whatever it is |
| 13:36 | Eimi | My point is merely that todos that exist outside of EDS don't get sync'd to my palm, where the rest of the todos live, and therefore are way too likely to be forgotten for me to use them. I may not be typical in that way, of course. |
| 13:36 | @boyd | and they could all tie back into eds |
| 13:37 | Jc2k | Eimi: thats where #conduit comes in. and it will be more than the palm users that benefit. |
| 13:37 | kurros | I think Conduit might help there |
| 13:37 | orph | the other thing is how much UI do you want to add to tomboy tasks? Evo tasks have a bunch of ui for %complete and due dates etc |
| 13:37 | @boyd | orph: I think we need to keep it simple |
| 13:37 | -!- | everaldo [~everaldo@189-29-208-8-nd.cpe.vivax.com.br] has joined #tomboy |
| 13:37 | Jc2k | i think if you overload it, it would suck. |
| 13:37 | @sandy | in a TODO note...have "open task in Evo" link at bottom |
| 13:37 | orph | i think if you introduce todos in tomboy, you make them more like notes and lightweight, and less like calendar todo tasks. more GTD-style. |
| 13:37 | @sandy | or something like that |
| 13:38 | Jc2k | orph: agree 100% |
| 13:38 | @boyd | orph: I agree as well |
| 13:38 | @boyd | I just know we'll have a better "win" if we satisfy people who actually do use evo already |
| 13:38 | @sandy | so if a Tomboy TODO automatically maps to an EDS task, you can edit those details in an app that's designed for it |
| 13:38 | maxasdf | Maybe have a very basic todo note in tomboy + open task in evo if you really want all that % completed etc |
| 13:38 | orph | so that's a good reason to avoid EDS, since you don't want to get roped into "heavy" tasks |
| 13:38 | @boyd | all we realy have to do is abstract the todo storage |
| 13:38 | @boyd | and let users decide |
| 13:38 | @boyd | we don't even have to write the eds part |
| 13:38 | Jc2k | sandy: if conduit is a blessed dep that takes about 4 lines of code |
| 13:39 | @boyd | someone who cares could doit ;) |
| 13:39 | orph | oh oh |
| 13:39 | orph | you could have Evo tasks link like tomboy notes, so if you type the task name, it'd link to the evo task |
| 13:40 | @boyd | sure |
| 13:40 | @sandy | ah, and have a link facility that creats EDS tasks? |
| 13:40 | orph | but that could be separate from tomboy todo items. |
| 13:40 | @sandy | like our note link button |
| 13:40 | orph | sandy: no. just open them in evo. |
| 13:40 | @sandy | I mean for task creation |
| 13:41 | @sandy | if you want to create your task in tomboy |
| 13:41 | orph | then you name a note "TODO: foo" :) |
| 13:41 | orph | why would you create an evo task in tomboy? can you create an evo task in openoffice? |
| 13:41 | maxasdf | how about right click + create task in evo after that? |
| 13:42 | @sandy | orph: to get it in your palm, to show it in your clock/cal applet, to see it in evo... |
| 13:42 | maxasdf | otherwise all todo: ... would turn up in evo. |
| 13:42 | maxasdf | which might also be confusing if people just type down a long list of todos in a note. |
| 13:43 | orph | sandy: see what in Evo? and Palm tasks are heavy weight just like evo tasks. |
| 13:43 | Jc2k | Conduit would get them into Evo and on to Palm's, Windows Mobile, and Symbian. We could even let their be filters that the user can set so that only certain tasks make this journey. |
| 13:43 | @boyd | orph: you never answered my question btw....have you tried out the tasks stuff in svn trunk? |
| 13:44 | orph | i think there should be a clear separation from heavy "tasks" and light-weight "todos". tomboy should do todos, and maybe just link to tasks. |
| 13:44 | orph | boyd: nope :) |
| 13:44 | @boyd | orph: ???!!!! ;) |
| 13:44 | * | Jc2k is nodding in the direction of orph |
| 13:44 | orph | i hate the menu thing |
| 13:44 | @boyd | heh |
| 13:45 | @boyd | in any case, it appears that we SHOULD keep the tasks ... or the idea of including todos/tasks in tomboy ... |
| 13:45 | @boyd | we can have more todo-specific conversations later ... right? |
| 13:45 | orph | i just want my list of notes. the standard note list should have a different icon for TODO notes, or maybe a checkbox in the note menu itself |
| 13:46 | @boyd | orph: the todos in the menu is eventually meant to be configurable ... i.e., show it or not |
| 13:46 | orph | i think todos should just be a flavor of note, one that means it can be "completed" |
| 13:46 | orph | anything else has really weird Evo crossover conflicts. |
| 13:46 | @boyd | orph: here's where I think that might break down ... if you have to create a new note/separate window for every todo ... |
| 13:47 | orph | not to mention that i haven't run evo in like 2 years :) |
| 13:47 | @boyd | if you're taking meeting notes and writing down a bunch of todo items |
| 13:47 | @boyd | you want them all in the same note |
| 13:47 | @boyd | not a bunch of different windows |
| 13:47 | @boyd | you know, like a bulleted list? |
| 13:47 | orph | well in that case you certainly don't want each one to be an Evo task |
| 13:48 | @boyd | I guess if you needed to make more detailed notes about the todo, you could then have it create/open a real todo-style note |
| 13:48 | orph | you could have a shortcut for it |
| 13:48 | @boyd | yeah, I'm not referring to evo at all |
| 13:48 | @boyd | I could care less about it |
| 13:48 | orph | like [] at the start of a line creates an auto-link todo item |
| 13:48 | maxasdf | boyd: can't we create todos as links without opening the linked note. So one could keep typing and maybe never create that note? |
| 13:48 | @boyd | maxasdf: absolutely! |
| 13:48 | orph | clicking it would open a new todo note |
| 13:49 | @boyd | orph: perfect! :) |
| 13:49 | @boyd | let's morph what we currently have to do this |
| 13:49 | orph | oh man, that would be sexy |
| 13:49 | @boyd | and we'll leave the whole evo thing out for now ... and Jc2k can work his magic of getting them into evo for everyone ;) |
| 13:50 | maxasdf | would be a cool addin. |
| 13:50 | @sandy | intresting idea to make Conduit a dependency of Tomboy, too |
| 13:50 | * | Jc2k dances excitedly |
| 13:50 | orph | eek |
| 13:50 | @boyd | sandy: not a dep of tomboy |
| 13:50 | @sandy | well, I meant optional |
| 13:50 | @boyd | maybe of the tasks-evo-addin |
| 13:50 | @sandy | fair enough |
| 13:50 | @boyd | okay then...next? Tagging!!!! ??? |
| 13:51 | orph | heh |
| 13:51 | @sandy | I actually liked the tagging ui in each note |
| 13:51 | * | orph needs coffee. back in 5. |
| 13:51 | @boyd | sandy: yeah, I like it there too. I think it just needs a little more love |
| 13:52 | @boyd | the UI in the search window was horrible IMO |
| 13:52 | @boyd | but we still ought to have something in there |
| 13:52 | @sandy | yeah |
| 13:52 | @boyd | when we first started looking into tagging ... the main motivation, at least for me, was to build a solution for notebooks |
| 13:52 | @boyd | i.e, I want to have a "Personal" notebook |
| 13:52 | @boyd | or a "Work" notebook |
| 13:52 | @boyd | or a "Project A" and a "Project B" notebook |
| 13:53 | Jc2k | f-spot has a handy keyboard shortcut for attaching tags without the mouse. i think it would be good to have that same idea, if not the same shortcut.. |
| 13:53 | @sandy | yeah, categorization of some sort is necessary the more I think about it |
| 13:53 | @sandy | especially wrt sync |
| 13:53 | @boyd | so that I could go into "Project A"-mode and all the notes I see, search, create...go into my project a notebook |
| 13:53 | @boyd | well, I think we can do categorization with tags |
| 13:54 | @boyd | but it would be nice to figure out an easy way to do this visually |
| 13:54 | @boyd | so the user doesn't just have to come up with it themselves |
| 13:54 | @boyd | something like f-spot (like Jc2k mentioned) might work, though I still haven't been sold on the way it works |
| 13:54 | @sandy | boyd: so you're saying a notebook-like UI? |
| 13:54 | @sandy | instead of the user manually tagging? |
| 13:55 | @sandy | a sort of suggested use of tags? |
| 13:55 | @boyd | sandy: that'd be one option |
| 13:55 | -!- | Demitar [~demitar@c-212-031-182-147.cust.broadway.se] has joined #tomboy |
| 13:55 | Jc2k | the shortcut was more for power users, rather than the only way to tag. |
| 13:55 | @boyd | at least for the search window |
| 13:55 | @boyd | in the search window, some of the main tags should be visible on the left/right-hand side or something (optionall) |
| 13:55 | @boyd | (optionally) |
| 13:56 | @boyd | and the user could quickly filter their list by selecting a tag |
| 13:56 | @sandy | boyd: do you have a screenshot of the work you were doing? |
| 13:56 | @sandy | the epiphany-style UI? |
| 13:56 | @boyd | I thought I did somewhere |
| 13:56 | @boyd | maybe not |
| 13:56 | Eimi | Should it be possible to have more than one note with the same title, but different tags? (For instance, notes named "Project Summary" for both Project A and Project B) |
| 13:56 | @boyd | Eimi: not sure |
| 13:56 | @boyd | Eimi: though that's a good point |
| 13:56 | @sandy | everybody: It looks like we'll be running later than an hour...I will be posting an IRC log for anyone who is concerned about missing anything |
| 13:56 | Jc2k | no it shouldnt, because then they are no longer tags |
| 13:57 | @boyd | yeah, I don't really like making tags part of the title |
| 13:57 | @boyd | but that's an interesting point anyhow |
| 13:57 | Eimi | I can see good points for both ways (well, actually I can see bad points for both ways). |
| 13:57 | @sandy | Eimi: that sounds like something heavier than tags |
| 13:57 | @boyd | tomboy still has to remain as easy as it has always been ... so that someone who doesn't use tags isn't pestered by their existence |
| 13:58 | * | sandy brainstorms |
| 13:58 | @boyd | I've seen some os x note-taking apps that I like a lot |
| 13:58 | @sandy | maybe in the recent notes menu, you can add "notebook" entries for specified tags? |
| 13:58 | @sandy | or maybe that sort of UI should only be in the Search window... |
| 13:59 | @sandy | but it might be neat to have quick access to all notes tagged "Work" |
| 13:59 | @boyd | or ... you could move tomboy into a "Work" mode? |
| 13:59 | @boyd | so that all notes you see/create automatically get the "Work" tag applied? |
| 13:59 | @sandy | yeah, that is more like the notebook idea |
| 13:59 | Jc2k | i like that idea |
| 13:59 | @sandy | modes are tricky |
| 13:59 | Jc2k | hmm |
| 14:00 | @sandy | especially for something like Tomboy, which eschews modes in so many ways |
| 14:00 | @boyd | just an idea ;) |
| 14:00 | @sandy | oh, I think it's a good idea |
| 14:00 | Jc2k | perhaps that can be an addin? |
| 14:00 | @boyd | heh |
| 14:00 | @sandy | just not sure how to do that in the UI |
| 14:00 | Jc2k | rather than forcing it on everyone? |
| 14:00 | @boyd | Jc2k: yeah, definitely |
| 14:01 | @boyd | I think when you put tomboy into a specific tag "mode", you'd have to conscientiously (sp?) do so |
| 14:01 | @sandy | and how would you know you're in a mode? |
| 14:01 | @boyd | it'd be apparent in the main menu, each note window, and the search window |
| 14:01 | @boyd | maybe a colored menuitem in the menu, a bar in the note, a toggled button in the search window |
| 14:01 | @boyd | I think there are ways |
| 14:02 | @sandy | but see, at that level, I think you almost want to be able to switch between entirely different note collections |
| 14:02 | @boyd | we could definitely experiment with it |
| 14:02 | @boyd | sandy: :) |
| 14:02 | Eimi | Presumably when you're in a mode, you can still link to notes that don't have that tag...even though they don't show up in the lists |
| 14:02 | @sandy | different Tomboy instances for each notebook |
| 14:03 | Jc2k | sandy: ouch for conduit :P |
| 14:03 | @sandy | Eimi: that's a very interesting questionto consider |
| 14:03 | Jc2k | ouch for dbus.. |
| 14:03 | @boyd | sandy: one drawback (could just be on implementation) is ... it'd possibly be more difficult to link to notes in multiple collections |
| 14:03 | @sandy | well, maybe each Tomboy applet talks to a tomboy singleton via dbus... |
| 14:03 | @boyd | I don't like the idea of different collections |
| 14:03 | @sandy | who knows? |
| 14:03 | @boyd | harder to search, link, etc. |
| 14:04 | @boyd | but it could be possible |
| 14:04 | maxasdf | where do you need the "collections" but in the main menu? |
| 14:04 | Jc2k | sandy: that would be good, and means its easy for dbus based automatic testing of stuff without screwing your main notes! |
| 14:04 | @boyd | we definitely need something like that! I could actually use tomboy again as a standard user! |
| 14:05 | Jc2k | me too xD |
| 14:05 | @sandy | boyd: on this laptop I'm using Tomboy Hackweek Edition |
| 14:05 | @sandy | never use this thing |
| 14:05 | orph | why not just have a tags sidebar that you toggle the visibility of from the toolbar? |
| 14:05 | @boyd | that's also fix this bug: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=251406 - tomboy has problems if running multiple gnome sessions |
| 14:05 | @sandy | orph: in the Search window? |
| 14:05 | orph | that lists out all the tags and lets you type a new one with autocomplete? |
| 14:05 | @boyd | orph: yeah, we kind of had that |
| 14:05 | @boyd | the ui wasn't ready for 0.8 so we disabled it |
| 14:05 | orph | sandy: sure, but in regular note windows too |
| 14:06 | @boyd | it just needs some tender loving care now |
| 14:06 | segphault | anybody seen the Zim notetaking program? Doesn't provide the same level of usability as Tomboy, but it might be a good source of inspiration |
| 14:06 | @boyd | the other thing that would be interesting (maybe implemented via addins) would be operations that can be done on all the notes listed in the search window |
| 14:06 | segphault | http://pardus-larus.student.utwente.nl/~pardus//projects/zim/images/screenshots/zim_1.png |
| 14:06 | @boyd | so you could filter by tag and then export to HTML |
| 14:06 | @boyd | or export to a blog, etc. |
| 14:07 | @boyd | or export to email ... or sync to someone/etc. |
| 14:07 | @sandy | segphault: interesting |
| 14:07 | maxasdf | That sounds really sweet. |
| 14:07 | orph | boyd: that's a nice idea |
| 14:07 | @sandy | how does that scale with lots of tags? |
| 14:07 | @sandy | oh, nevermind |
| 14:07 | @sandy | misread the screenshot |
| 14:08 | @sandy | boyd: definiteloy |
| 14:08 | @boyd | well, essentially, the tagging stuff just needs a willing person to hack on it and bring it back to life! |
| 14:08 | @sandy | there's a bug for reports that applies there |
| 14:08 | @boyd | as long as it doesn't screw up tomboy's basic functionality, it's a no-brainer in my opinion to get it going |
| 14:09 | @sandy | yeah, the current version plus search ui cleanups is very unobtrusive |
| 14:09 | @boyd | any volunteers to make it rock ? |
| 14:09 | orph | ya, that's why i think a simple sidebar would work best with a "Tags" toggle button in the toolbar |
| 14:09 | @boyd | come on all you closet hackers! |
| 14:09 | @sandy | :-) |
| 14:09 | * | orph has too many projects to juggle :-/ |
| 14:10 | @boyd | a lot of the code is already written, it really just needs some good UI love |
| 14:10 | @sandy | boyd: let's turn tags back on |
| 14:10 | @sandy | blog, send out emails, etc |
| 14:10 | @sandy | maybe this cycle we'll actually get bugs for it? |
| 14:10 | @boyd | action item: I'll get them back into trunk |
| 14:10 | @sandy | patches, too? |
| 14:10 | * | boyd likes patches! |
| 14:10 | @boyd | sandy: okay, anything we need to do with sync? |
| 14:11 | @sandy | I'm glad you asked... |
| 14:11 | Jc2k | :) |
| 14:11 | @sandy | so I talked with orph a little before feature freeze |
| 14:11 | @sandy | he had some really good ideas |
| 14:11 | @sandy | I'd like to eliminate as much sync UI as possible |
| 14:11 | @boyd | I don't feel comfortable relying on conduit for it until conduit is part of gnome |
| 14:11 | * | boyd hides from Jc2k |
| 14:11 | * | Jc2k kicks boyd hard |
| 14:11 | @boyd | ouch! |
| 14:11 | @sandy | sync should happen in the b ackground periodically |
| 14:12 | @sandy | and "just work" |
| 14:12 | @boyd | sandy: I like that idea |
| 14:12 | @sandy | you should onlyget bugged if tyhere's a conflict |
| 14:12 | Jc2k | we are working on that and putting together a "blessed depenedency" proposal |
| 14:12 | @sandy | there are some issues with whether a user should be able to use Tomboy during a sync operation |
| 14:12 | Jc2k | eh, re periodically... we put dbus events in there for a reason ;) |
| 14:12 | @boyd | Jc2k: hope you hurry, the new module proposal for gnome 2.22 is quickly approaching |
| 14:12 | @sandy | Jc2k: constant sync might be a bit much |
| 14:12 | @sandy | every 4 seconds while you're working ona note? |
| 14:13 | @boyd | sandy: perhaps snapshots could be taken and synced |
| 14:13 | Jc2k | sandy: good point :P |
| 14:13 | @sandy | yeah, that's what I was thinking |
| 14:13 | @boyd | the snapshot syncs and the user continues working on the main list |
| 14:13 | @sandy | and use libnotify |
| 14:13 | @sandy | when there's a conflict |
| 14:13 | orph | ya, just pipeline the syncing |
| 14:13 | @boyd | and if something changes in the meantime, it syncs again later |
| 14:13 | @sandy | change Tomboy icon |
| 14:13 | @sandy | yadda yadda |
| 14:14 | @sandy | sexy notify lets you add links, so clicking the notify bubble could open the conflicting note or whatever |
| 14:14 | Jc2k | boyd: johns blog hints at whats happening. |
| 14:14 | @sandy | if you're reading a note, and it's updated, you get gedit-style reload bar |
| 14:14 | @sandy | I think that's it |
| 14:15 | @boyd | sandy: that's awesome :) |
| 14:15 | @sandy | so under most circumstances there's very little sync UI |
| 14:15 | @sandy | the other end |
| 14:15 | @sandy | is configuration |
| 14:15 | orph | yay |
| 14:15 | @sandy | I want NO CONFIGURATION |
| 14:15 | orph | me too! |
| 14:15 | @sandy | but that requires something built into the desktop |
| 14:15 | @boyd | ah, yes. |
| 14:15 | @sandy | so I'd like to talke to Havoc agagin |
| 14:15 | orph | or maybe a gstorage backend or something |
| 14:15 | * | sandy can't type on this laptop |
| 14:16 | @boyd | will that be ready by feature freeze? |
| 14:16 | orph | google just opened up their storage api |
| 14:16 | @sandy | no way? |
| 14:16 | @sandy | should check that out |
| 14:16 | @boyd | orph: seriously!!! |
| 14:16 | orph | we could use that as a fire to get online desktop to do what we need |
| 14:16 | @sandy | boyd: I can do the UI stuff |
| 14:16 | @sandy | the online desktop stuff depends on what's needed |
| 14:16 | @boyd | I wonder if anyone has written a fuse-fs for the new google api |
| 14:17 | @sandy | if we can use some FUSE fs (like WebDAV) to get the notes to online.gnome.org, then that's easy |
| 14:17 | @boyd | if we can sync directly to someone's google acct. w/o it screwing up how their email looks, I say we add that in ASAP! |
| 14:17 | @sandy | if I have to work on the server side, it's not as easy |
| 14:17 | @sandy | boyd: yup |
| 14:17 | @boyd | I mean, who doesn't have a gmail account nowadays? ;) |
| 14:17 | @sandy | too bad gmailfs didn't work for us |
| 14:17 | @sandy | that would have kicked ass |
| 14:18 | @boyd | agreed |
| 14:18 | @boyd | I imagine someone will have something similar |
| 14:18 | @sandy | yeah |
| 14:18 | @sandy | so zero-or-really-easy-config for sync is important |
| 14:18 | @sandy | I'd honestly rather get the UI improved |
| 14:18 | @sandy | as the higher priority |
| 14:19 | @sandy | maybe that's just me being embarassed about the current UI |
| 14:19 | @boyd | sandy: you're right w/ that approach |
| 14:19 | @sandy | easier config means more users |
| 14:19 | Jc2k | any plans for device sync ;) |
| 14:19 | @sandy | Jc2k: Conduit does that, yeah? |
| 14:19 | Jc2k | yeah! |
| 14:19 | @sandy | so why should we? :-) |
| 14:19 | Jc2k | well, ipod xD |
| 14:19 | @boyd | maybe long-term, but I don't see it as a huge "gotta-have" for tomboy users |
| 14:20 | Jc2k | sandy: i could turn that around on u but i cbs |
| 14:20 | Jc2k | cba even |
| 14:20 | @sandy | yeah, I jsut realized that |
| 14:20 | @sandy | :-P |
| 14:20 | Jc2k | i have 10m of power :( |
| 14:20 | @boyd | okay, so the revamp of note renaming behavior ??? |
| 14:20 | @boyd | that work ties in with the earlier-mentioned title issues I think |
| 14:21 | @sandy | I want notes named "git" and "bzr" and "whateverthehelliwant" |
| 14:21 | @sandy | I don't want my content changing when I rename those notes |
| 14:21 | @boyd | sandy: good luck! |
| 14:21 | @sandy | is that sacreligious? |
| 14:21 | @sandy | solves the whole problem |
| 14:21 | @boyd | yeah, I guess if we don't automatically rename, then it would |
| 14:21 | @sandy | optionally, maybe user can get prompted "you renamed this note, want to update links in these notes?" |
| 14:22 | orph | i think enforcing good names is an easy enough thing to do |
| 14:22 | @sandy | I don't want to be enforced |
| 14:22 | * | sandy shrugs |
| 14:22 | * | Jc2k nods |
| 14:22 | orph | i force myself to use good names because i've lost stuff too often, or had note content corrupted |
| 14:22 | @sandy | I have never once used the auto-link-update feature |
| 14:22 | maxasdf | How about not automatically linking each time a title appears somewhere else? |
| 14:23 | Eimi | I have never once *intended* to use the auto-link-update "feature". I've been screwed by it a few times, though. |
| 14:23 | orph | the problem is that in tomboy, changing a name without updating the link means that you're screwed, because it's such a big flat namespace. you'll probably lose track of the renamed note. |
| 14:23 | @sandy | I really disagree |
| 14:23 | @sandy | I think search fixes that |
| 14:23 | @sandy | and how often do you rename notes with long titles? |
| 14:24 | orph | not when you haven't looked at a cluster of notes in a year |
| 14:24 | @sandy | well, you have enough clues, imho |
| 14:24 | @sandy | you have the broken link with the old note name |
| 14:24 | @boyd | would there be another solution possibly? i.e., don't rename other note content, but flag that title so it appears differently? so you could click on it and navigate to the new page? |
| 14:24 | Jc2k | brb guys |
| 14:24 | maxasdf | sandy: if you have a note named git - do you want all occurences of "git" to link there? |
| 14:24 | Eimi | This brings me back to something I was wondering about before; is there a way to get a list of orphaned notes (with no backlinks), without complicating the interface too much? |
| 14:24 | @sandy | maxasdf: yes! |
| 14:25 | @boyd | sandy: there is? |
| 14:25 | @sandy | and when I rename "git" to "why git sucks", I want a bunch of broken links |
| 14:25 | @boyd | whoops, I misread |
| 14:25 | orph | boyd: i thought about that. you could have the link actually include the uuid of the note it's linked to. |
| 14:25 | @boyd | orph: right |
| 14:25 | @sandy | right, so we could have more complicated linking, too, as a possible solution |
| 14:25 | @sandy | people have asked for that |
| 14:25 | @sandy | not sure my thoughts on it |
| 14:25 | orph | sandy: or you're just sick of "git" linking in a bunch of places you don't expect. |
| 14:26 | @sandy | well, that's a good point |
| 14:26 | Eimi | I would really love a way to find or remove all broken links. |
| 14:26 | @sandy | my solution doesn't fix that particular irritating problem |
| 14:26 | * | boyd starts whimpering thinking about TextIters and TextBuffers |
| 14:26 | orph | sandy: that's the point of making the naming rules more strict. you avoid accidental linking in the first place. |
| 14:26 | @sandy | Eimi: there's a bug for that, I think Boyd wrote an andd-in to fix those |
| 14:26 | @sandy | we should include that add-in |
| 14:27 | @boyd | I don't remember doing that |
| 14:27 | @boyd | ;) |
| 14:27 | maxasdf | How about typing ->git if you want a link? |
| 14:27 | orph | there's a reason WikiWikiNames look like they do, it's to avoid accidental linking. |
| 14:27 | @sandy | well, somebody wrote something to clean broken linnks... |
| 14:27 | @sandy | orph: there's a reason most wikis don't use those anymore |
| 14:27 | @sandy | or require them, at least |
| 14:27 | orph | sandy: ya, they use explicit linking. that's hard to do with a WYSIWYG. |
| 14:28 | @sandy | true true |
| 14:28 | @sandy | maxasdf: I usually like unexpected automatic linking |
| 14:28 | @sandy | "oh yeah, I had a whole note about 'git'!" |
| 14:28 | @sandy | that sort of thing happens all the time |
| 14:29 | maxasdf | i see. I really liked it for some time as well. |
| 14:29 | -!- | dave_largo [~drichard@64-132-254-110.static.twtelecom.net] has quit [Client exiting] |
| 14:29 | @sandy | but I see what you and orph are saying about linking in "agitha" or whatever |
| 14:29 | orph | also |
| 14:30 | @sandy | okay, I'm not seeing any "oh oh" brilliant ideas to solve this here and now |
| 14:30 | maxasdf | But it gets you into trouble if you have a "git" and a "why git sucks" note and type why git sucks... |
| 14:30 | * | sandy recants, waits for orph to finish |
| 14:30 | orph | you could just not auto-link single word notes |
| 14:30 | orph | you can always select the single word and click the link button if you want the link |
| 14:30 | @boyd | that only partially solves the problem. it would still exist with >1 word notes |
| 14:30 | @sandy | again everyone, for refverene we are discussing this bug: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=350990 |
| 14:31 | @boyd | disabling auto-linking is an interesting idea |
| 14:31 | orph | boyd: right, but the risk of corruption is much much lower with multiple word notes, and the risk of link loss much higher |
| 14:32 | maxasdf | I think there are two ways people are using this. |
| 14:32 | maxasdf | Maybe you could allow choosing to enable WikiWords and renaming or disable both? |
| 14:32 | @sandy | action item for me: sum up proposed approaches to solving note renaming problem |
| 14:32 | @boyd | orph: I agree, but the problem will still bite some people ... and we'll continue getting complaints, albeit the problem won't be encountered as often |
| 14:32 | Eimi | Instead of disallowing notes with short titles, what if renaming them didn't edit anything? |
| 14:32 | Eimi | I'd rather renaming notes never change anything else, but at least if it only changed for multi-word titles, it would prevent a lot of breakage. |
| 14:33 | orph | i mean, i think the only problem is that people have accidentally linked words they didn't expect, and have those notes change content out from under them when they rename a note. |
| 14:33 | @sandy | probably rare enough situation to solve with a dialog, imho |
| 14:33 | orph | both of those go away if you limit the number of crapily named notes. |
| 14:33 | maxasdf | How about only renaming WikiWords? |
| 14:33 | @sandy | for that approach, we have a pretty good patch |
| 14:33 | @sandy | from Boyd |
| 14:34 | @sandy | that just needs some cleanup, I think |
| 14:34 | orph | sandy: ya, thought about that originally. the problem is what does the dialog say? "some notes link to this one, do you want to update them?" do you then list them out, let people open the notes, have checkboxes to select which ones to update, or what? |
| 14:34 | Eimi | But preventing crapily named notes adds more cognitive load for note naming. If I *want* a note named "git", I don't want to have to think too hard about what else I would name it. |
| 14:34 | @sandy | orph: yeah, I'd probably prefer the complicated version of that dialog |
| 14:34 | @sandy | checkboxes, etc |
| 14:35 | orph | ya, screw that :) |
| 14:35 | @sandy | I'm not saying it's elegant |
| 14:35 | @sandy | I'm trying to optimize for the 80% case |
| 14:35 | @sandy | and I really do believe people want to be able to name their ntoes whatever they want |
| 14:35 | @sandy | but I'll drop it for now :-) |
| 14:35 | orph | well, i'd argue that the 80% case is that people just want to rename a note, and have things update accordingly. |
| 14:36 | Eimi | I'd suggest "14 notes link to the note you just renamed. If you don't update them, they will no longer link to it. You can also obtain a list of notes to update manually." with buttons for "Update", "Break links" and "List notes". |
| 14:36 | Jc2k | i want to name my notes whatever i want :'( and i want things to update too :'( |
| 14:36 | @sandy | stupid users! |
| 14:36 | @boyd | oh boy ;) |
| 14:36 | orph | sandy: so maybe just not autolinking single-word notes is the better approach. |
| 14:36 | @sandy | Jc2k: stop *wanting* |
| 14:37 | Jc2k | :P |
| 14:37 | @sandy | perhaps |
| 14:37 | @sandy | I'll document all of this stuff on the bug later tonight |
| 14:37 | @boyd | again, looks like someone should hack up some code and give it a whirl! :) |
| 14:37 | orph | i've only really had the problem with badly named notes. have people seen this in other cases? |
| 14:37 | @sandy | that's true, people accidentally name a note 'a' |
| 14:38 | @sandy | that's the biggest complaint we've seen |
| 14:38 | orph | or use a common dictionary word |
| 14:38 | @sandy | it's not normally going from good name 1 to good name 2 |
| 14:38 | @boyd | I think the safest approach is to require users to name their notes with a full 10-word sentence :) |
| 14:38 | @sandy | in iambic pentameter |
| 14:38 | -!- | slomo [~slomo@f049173181.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ex-Chat] |
| 14:38 | @boyd | ...or at least warn them when we detect a note title that is suspicious |
| 14:38 | orph | hah, now there's an add-in i'd love to see! |
| 14:39 | @boyd | ...or an add-in that spins the wheel for a randomly-named title :) |
| 14:39 | @sandy | alright, next issue? |
| 14:39 | @sandy | Scalability? |
| 14:39 | @boyd | seriously though, I think requiring a note title with a certain length/# of words is obviously the safest, just not the most convenient for users |
| 14:39 | @boyd | yes, next topic! |
| 14:39 | orph | speaking of randomly named title, do people want to replace the "new note 123" with a timestamp? |
| 14:40 | @boyd | orph: I've heard that feedback a lot, yes |
| 14:40 | @sandy | yeah, we should probably just go ahead and do that |
| 14:40 | * | maxasdf would like it too. |
| 14:40 | @boyd | though it gets kind of hard to read a list of notes that way sometimes |
| 14:40 | orph | i was originally against it, because i found through trial and error that timestamped notes meant i didn't rename them right away |
| 14:40 | @boyd | but, let the users pick! |
| 14:40 | @sandy | anyone care that I changed the new note title selection behavior? |
| 14:40 | @boyd | sandy: to what? |
| 14:40 | @sandy | I think orph's suggestion helps that |
| 14:40 | orph | whereas using a lame note title like "new note 123" meant i always rename it right away |
| 14:40 | @sandy | create new note, select content |
| 14:41 | @sandy | used to be: create new note, selct title |
| 14:41 | @sandy | so you don't have to rename before you start typing content |
| 14:41 | @sandy | I like the change |
| 14:41 | @boyd | sandy: I hit that same thing TODAY! |
| 14:41 | @sandy | and I think changing the default new note title makes it even more obvious |
| 14:41 | orph | huh? it was always select the content on new note creation! |
| 14:41 | @boyd | orph: really? |
| 14:41 | orph | ya! when did that change? |
| 14:42 | @boyd | orph: you sure? ;) |
| 14:42 | @sandy | well, it changed at some point |
| 14:42 | orph | Tomboy 0.6.3 that I have installed does it. |
| 14:42 | @boyd | well, in any case, we need to change it back then |
| 14:42 | @sandy | I did that alraedy |
| 14:42 | * | boyd hopes he's not the one to blame |
| 14:42 | Eimi | If you change the default new note title, then Note of the Day becomes pretty much obsolete |
| 14:42 | @boyd | Eimi: possibly |
| 14:42 | @sandy | clarifying: |
| 14:43 | * | orph actually really likes the "new note 123" thing |
| 14:43 | orph | in fact, i love it |
| 14:43 | orph | but i'll cede to the crowd :-> |
| 14:43 | @boyd | orph: what a good little boy :) |
| 14:43 | * | sandy looks up bug |
| 14:44 | * | sandy is using old TOmboy on this laptop |
| 14:44 | @sandy | |
| 14:44 | @sandy | http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=449478 |
| 14:44 | @sandy | whoops |
| 14:44 | @sandy | had it backwards |
| 14:44 | @sandy | but I now agree we should change it back to the way it was |
| 14:44 | @sandy | select content, not title |
| 14:44 | @sandy | if the note title is more useful than New note 123 |
| 14:45 | orph | selecting content is extremely important |
| 14:45 | @sandy | I like my last comment on that bug...nobody ever noticed the change! |
| 14:45 | @boyd | I agree |
| 14:45 | orph | did tomboy ship with title selection?? |
| 14:45 | @sandy | well, we can change that for 0.8.1 without bothering anybody |
| 14:45 | @boyd | sandy: I noticed it this morning when I wanted to start typing immediately |
| 14:45 | @sandy | orph: yes |
| 14:45 | orph | fuck! |
| 14:46 | * | orph waits for 0.8.1 ;-) |
| 14:46 | * | sandy fired? |
| 14:46 | orph | no way dude! |
| 14:46 | @boyd | I'd almost prefer to have EVERYTHING (title and content) selected |
| 14:46 | @boyd | I never keep either of them around |
| 14:46 | @sandy | okay, action item for me |
| 14:46 | @sandy | unfuck tomboy |
| 14:47 | orph | boyd: nah, then you end up with titles that don't make any sense when you start typing |
| 14:47 | @boyd | this is starting to remind me of boston summit 2006 |
| 14:47 | @boyd | orph: I wouldn't, but maybe you would! ;) |
| 14:47 | @sandy | maybe I can sneak in change from "New Note 123" to timestamp, too |
| 14:47 | @sandy | boyd: new users would, I'm sure |
| 14:47 | @sandy | since it's so free form |
| 14:47 | @boyd | sandy: you're prob. right |
| 14:48 | @sandy | okay, glad we discussed that |
| 14:48 | orph | i would suggest trying out the timestamp thing before committing it. watch to see if you end up renaming notes as much as you do now. |
| 14:48 | orph | i didn't |
| 14:48 | @sandy | ah, which you're saying is abd |
| 14:48 | @sandy | bad |
| 14:48 | orph | ya |
| 14:48 | @sandy | gotcha |
| 14:48 | @sandy | user gains a lot from naming their notes well |
| 14:48 | @boyd | well ... that goes back to a discussion we had a long time ago ... |
| 14:48 | orph | exactly :) |
| 14:48 | @boyd | let the user set up how it's named in the preferences |
| 14:49 | @boyd | Note 123, Date/Time, etc. |
| 14:49 | @sandy | same problem...I think |
| 14:49 | @sandy | not that I'm saying we shouldn't do it |
| 14:49 | orph | boyd: maybe a hidden pref, but i suspect there's an optimal title |
| 14:49 | @sandy | but if there's a default that they like, they won't make better names |
| 14:49 | @boyd | orph: you're such an optimist :) |
| 14:49 | orph | ya, there's a bunch of head fakes in tomboy |
| 14:49 | @boyd | hidden pref is fine |
| 14:50 | orph | the new note title is one of them :) |
| 14:50 | @sandy | oh, I forgot to mention |
| 14:50 | @sandy | wrt sync |
| 14:50 | @sandy | I'd like to be able to sync based on tag |
| 14:51 | @sandy | is anyone opposed to that |
| 14:51 | @boyd | sandy: it just complicates things a LOT |
| 14:51 | @sandy | well, I'll write up a little design before coding |
| 14:51 | @sandy | I don't think it's too bad |
| 14:51 | @boyd | k |
| 14:51 | @sandy | I have some notes somewhere about it |
| 14:51 | @sandy | lets me not sync ponitless work stuff back to home, or personal stuff to my compnay-controlled computer |
| 14:51 | @sandy | etc |
| 14:52 | @boyd | right, I understand the use case |
| 14:52 | @boyd | just might be hard to have it not muddy the "ease of use" waters |
| 14:52 | @sandy | alright, I won't do it without convincing you |
| 14:52 | @sandy | :-) |
| 14:52 | @sandy | I'll write something up |
| 14:52 | @boyd | cool |
| 14:52 | @boyd | so ... scaling? |
| 14:52 | @boyd | anyone want to champion building an index on top of all the notes? |
| 14:53 | orph | the problem with partial syncing is that there's a big screwage factor. |
| 14:53 | @boyd | (wow, this mtg. is super long) |
| 14:53 | orph | like you're working on a note, and forget to tag it, and then tomorrow at work you don't have it. |
| 14:53 | @sandy | orph: you're right |
| 14:53 | @sandy | but the default would be to sync everything |
| 14:53 | @sandy | so only nitpicky users would use that feature |
| 14:54 | * | boyd wonders how many non-hackers use sync |
| 14:54 | @sandy | once it's easy enough |
| 14:54 | @sandy | I think we'll see more people using it |
| 14:54 | Jc2k | i support SynCE quite a bit, there are plent of non-hackers who want to use that... |
| 14:54 | orph | boyd: very few currently. if it's made easy and low screwage factor, i think everyone would. |
| 14:55 | orph | bulletpoints and syncing were always the big feature requests |
| 14:55 | @boyd | orph: you're assuming everyone runs linux everywhere |
| 14:55 | @sandy | well, this of course leads to various ports |
| 14:55 | @sandy | Maemo, Windows, whatever |
| 14:55 | * | boyd would love a port to os x |
| 14:55 | @sandy | that would be hardest |
| 14:56 | @boyd | or to web 2.0 |
| 14:56 | @sandy | can't do gtk |
| 14:56 | @sandy | and so much of TOmboy is UI |
| 14:56 | Jc2k | does tomboy handle syncing two partially initialised datasets (as in, "fred" has A,B and "barney" has C,D) |
| 14:56 | @boyd | if I had the time/motivation, I'd write an osx-based tomboy :) |
| 14:56 | Jc2k | if i had the time and osx i'd write osx conduit... |
| 14:56 | -!- | s4kito [~s4kito@189.193.86.147] has quit [Remote closed the connection] |
| 14:57 | @sandy | Jc2k: no, it doesn't |
| 14:57 | @sandy | alright, so wrt scalability |
| 14:57 | @sandy | our dbus interface is starting to rock |
| 14:57 | @boyd | I haven't seen many complaints lately abt. memory suckage |
| 14:57 | @sandy | could use some more stuff (like search) |
| 14:57 | @sandy | but we could write some tests pretty easily in python or wahtever |
| 14:58 | @sandy | to do things like add 10K noteds |
| 14:58 | @boyd | or many things wrt slowing down with large # of notes |
| 14:58 | segphault | is there documentation for the dbus api anywhere? |
| 14:58 | @sandy | and then time certain actions |
| 14:58 | @boyd | yeah, tests would be good! |
| 14:58 | @boyd | segphault: in the code ;) |
| 14:58 | segphault | lol ok |
| 14:58 | @boyd | segphault: I don't know that anyone has written it up formally |
| 14:58 | @sandy | once sync is mo' betta', I'd really like to start writing up a good test suite for Tomboy |
| 14:58 | @boyd | segphault: I'm sure Jc2k would be up for documenting it though, right? ;) |
| 14:59 | maxasdf | segphault: i found it rather easy to figure out. |
| 14:59 | @sandy | segphault: actually, the code is pretty decent documentation |
| 14:59 | segphault | I was thinking of writing a short Tomboy D-Bus tutorial |
| 14:59 | @sandy | just a list of very simple methods |
| 14:59 | segphault | I'm from Ars Technica btw, in case you all hadn't figured that out yet. ;-) |
| 14:59 | @boyd | if someone could take the action item of testing large scale notes ... |
| 14:59 | orph | maybe we should start a wiki page with all the little tomboy UI tricks that effect usability. |
| 14:59 | @boyd | and report back |
| 14:59 | Jc2k | conduit has a python script that dumps the tomboy interface |
| 14:59 | @sandy | segphault: read you all the time, so yeah |
| 15:00 | @boyd | then we'd have a better idea what we're up against as far as scalability issues |
| 15:00 | segphault | :-) |
| 15:00 | @boyd | ...and we'd have something to test against |
| 15:00 | @sandy | startup time started hurting with additon of Mono.addins |
| 15:00 | @sandy | not sure what we can do to fix that |
| 15:00 | @boyd | orph: good idea |
| 15:00 | orph | oh really? what's the slowdown? |
| 15:00 | @sandy | probably M.A initialization stuff? |
| 15:00 | @boyd | it just takes longer to load the addins vs. the plugins |
| 15:00 | @boyd | yeah, it does m.a stuff |
| 15:01 | @boyd | checking different directories, etc. |
| 15:01 | @sandy | if it were just instantiation, the solution is easy |
| 15:01 | @sandy | right |
| 15:01 | @boyd | I don't think it's a huge problem really |
| 15:01 | @sandy | no, but I hate seeing startup time climb |
| 15:01 | @boyd | since you start tomboy up and then ... it essentially stays on from then on out |
| 15:01 | @boyd | agreed. |
| 15:01 | orph | could the addins be initialized in a thread? |
| 15:01 | @sandy | because it increases login time |
| 15:01 | @boyd | orph: guess it depends on the addin |
| 15:01 | @sandy | good point |
| 15:02 | @sandy | some might need to be loaded before clicking menu, etc |
| 15:02 | @boyd | we've introduced a new "application" addin that gets a chance to do stuff as soon as tomboy gets churning |
| 15:03 | @boyd | I like the idea of a NoteWindowAddin |
| 15:03 | @boyd | not sure who recommended that, but there's no reason to load an addin automatically for every single non-opened note. |
| 15:03 | @sandy | yeah, that was me |
| 15:03 | @boyd | Backlinks could be changed to use that |
| 15:04 | @sandy | and Print |
| 15:04 | @boyd | yup |
| 15:04 | @sandy | a couple others |
| 15:04 | orph | neat |
| 15:04 | @sandy | okay, so we'll need to do tests and take measurements |
| 15:04 | @sandy | for scalability |
| 15:04 | @boyd | yep |
| 15:04 | @sandy | see if users are complaining, though |
| 15:05 | * | sandy writes action item to investigate, document any reported slowdowns, write test cases, etc |
| 15:05 | @boyd | these action items could possibly just be part of the RoadMap? |
| 15:05 | @sandy | probably |
| 15:06 | @sandy | I'll put them on the meeting page first |
| 15:06 | @sandy | just to document where everything's coming from |
| 15:06 | @boyd | any votes for changing Tomboy to be 1.0 next stable release? or Tomboy 2.22? or do we want to stick with 0.10 ? |
| 15:07 | @sandy | I don't think 2.22 makes much sense at this point |
| 15:07 | Jc2k | i vote for sticking to 0.10 |
| 15:07 | @sandy | only because we're not hugely integrated into gnome |
| 15:07 | @sandy | we can run on older gnome, etc |
| 15:08 | @boyd | sandy: I think you added this to the wiki. any thoughts/recommendations? |
| 15:08 | @sandy | no, not really |
| 15:08 | @sandy | I did add it |
| 15:08 | @sandy | I was just wondering if anyone had ideas of what would make Tomboy "1.0" |
| 15:09 | @sandy | is there a feature-complete Tomboy? |
| 15:09 | @boyd | ...or does it ever need to hit 1.0? |
| 15:09 | @sandy | are we less than 1.0 because we're not reallys table? |
| 15:09 | @sandy | users think that |
| 15:09 | @sandy | about software |
| 15:09 | @sandy | < 1.0 -> not ready yet |
| 15:09 | @boyd | if there's a perception problem, I don't mind moving to 1.0 |
| 15:09 | orph | what's the point of a 1.0 if it's already on most desktops? :-) |
| 15:09 | @boyd | yeah, but if it's already there, I don't see a big need |
| 15:10 | @sandy | yup |
| 15:10 | @sandy | it's almost pointless |
| 15:10 | @sandy | whatever the version number |
| 15:10 | @boyd | although, if we did the move now, then this question wouldn't come up in the future ;) |
| 15:10 | @sandy | so sticking with 0.10.0 probably makes the most sense |
| 15:10 | maxasdf | Still see a lot of changes like the todos comming in. Last release did feel < 1.0 to me. |
| 15:10 | @boyd | it could be exciting to see Tomboy 1.0 ! ;) |
| 15:10 | @sandy | party time? |
| 15:11 | orph | excellent! |
| 15:11 | @sandy | okay, and Boyd, I agree with your coding guidelines suggestion |
| 15:11 | @sandy | we just need to change our MD settings |
| 15:11 | @boyd | k, whatever needs to be done! |
| 15:11 | @boyd | THANKS EVERYONE! |
| 15:12 | @sandy | oh noes, meeting over already? |
| 15:12 | @sandy | :-P: |
| 15:12 | * | sandy regards weird typo...licking eyballs or something? |
| 15:12 | @boyd | thanks sandy for keeping the log and recording action items ;) |
| 15:13 | @sandy | yeah, stuff might not be up on wiki until tonight |
| 15:13 | @boyd | no rush |
| 15:13 | @sandy | since we ran late |
| 15:13 | @boyd | when you're done ... just post something to the lists |
| 15:13 | @sandy | yup |
| 15:13 | * | maxasdf goes to bed. It's past midnight here... |
| 15:13 | segphault | nobody objects if I write a short article for Ars about Tomboy plans, right? |
| 15:13 | @boyd | ...in case anyone cares, heh. |
| 15:13 | @boyd | segphault: cool :) |
| 15:13 | @sandy | the press! ahhh! |
| 15:13 | @sandy | segphault: will you wait until we update the roadmap? |
| 15:14 | segphault | sure, I can do that |
| 15:14 | @boyd | http://live.gnome.org/Tomboy/RoadMap |
| 15:14 | @sandy | ha, I thought you'd updated it or something |
| 15:14 | @sandy | I do like my workload on the current 0.10.0 roadmap |
| 15:15 | @boyd | we still need to fix up the 0.8 roadmap |
| 15:15 | @sandy | true |
| 15:18 | -!- | cps [~chris@ppp121-44-81-219.lns10.syd6.internode.on.net] has joined #tomboy |
| 15:20 | -!- | boyd changed the topic of #tomboy to: Tomboy Notes | http://www.gnome.org/projects/tomboy | http://live.gnome.org/Tomboy/RoadMap | Latest release is 0.8.0 |
| 15:20 | -!- | maxasdf [~max@85.183.210.150] has left #tomboy [] |
| 15:22 | @sandy | I put the action items up in a rough form |
| 15:23 | @sandy | I'll clean it up, put up the log, and prepare the roadmap this evening |
| 15:23 | @sandy | then I'll email the list |
| 15:23 | @boyd | sandy: awesome, thanks! |
| 15:23 | @sandy | segphault: do you subscribe to tomboy-list? |
| 15:23 | @sandy | I guess I should blog it, too |
| 15:23 | @sandy | for p.g.o |
| 15:23 | segphault | no, I don't subscribe to tomboy-list |
| 15:23 | @boyd | sandy: good idea |
| 15:23 | segphault | if you could cc the message to segphault@arstechnica.com, I'd really appreciate it |
| 15:23 | @sandy | shouldn't be a problem |
| 15:23 | segphault | thanks! :-) |
| 15:24 | @sandy | alright, I'm gonna go |
| 15:24 | @sandy | thanks boyd for organizing this |
